Hereditary
01:27:45
About
Heads-up! It’s another family friendly, feel-good romp from Ari Aster, as we watch his stark debut “Hereditary”. A film which features a great deal of old-person nudity; reminds you to take your bloody EpiPen with you to social gatherings (parties, funerals etc); and demonstrates that not picking up after yourself is how you get ants. Along the way we discuss Alan Moore’s “Show Pieces”, “Scare Me”, “Hubie Halloween”, “Buffy The Vampire Slayer” and the BBC Radio adaptation of “Children of the Stones”. Watch (or re-watch) to avoid spoilers, and join us. APOLOGIES FOR ANY SOUND QUALITY ISSUES -CURRENT QUARANTINE MEASURES MEANT WE HAD TO RECORD THIS EPISODE REMOTELY.
Who's gonna take care of me?
Famous lines
- "Evil runs in the family."
- "I never wanted to be your mother."— Annie
- "DON'T you swear at me, you little shit! Don't you EVER raise your voice at me! I am your mother!"— Annie
- "Charlie, you're alright, now. You... are Paimon. One of the eight kings of Hell."— Joan
Quotes verified against Wikiquote.
Transcript
Show full transcript
LeeGood evening and welcome to Horror. I'm Lee.
ChrisI'm Chris.
AdamAnd I'm Adam.
Lee!
ChrisHmm.
LeeAnd we are here to show what I think could possibly be one of Chris's favorite horror movies today, on account of the fact that it's bleak as arseholes.
LeeSo exactly his cup of tea.
LeeUh, we're covering Hereditary.
LeeUm, ahead of time, Chris, over the excitement and enjoyment of Hereditary, did you, uh, did you watch anything else this week?
ChrisI, I have, in in stark contrast, I decided to watch on someone's recommendation, Hubie's Halloween.
LeeYes, I also watched Hubie's Halloween.
ChrisThat prepared me perfectly.
AdamWell, apparently, originally Adam Sandler had the, uh, the Gabriel Byrne role in Hereditary.
LeeHa!
AdamI think he, I think he had to drop out of it to do something else.
LeeWhat did you make of it, Chris?
ChrisI thought I thought there was a lot of good in in Hubie's Halloween.
ChrisIf you took out Adam Sandler, it would have been a really good film.
LeeI know.
LeeDo you know, if he had just dialed his character back.
LeeThis is the problem.
LeeEverybody was playing it like a kind of, like Adam's laughing at me already.
LeeWhat?
AdamI just love the idea that you think you could tell him.
AdamLike you have the concept of dial it back, huh?
LeeYeah.
AdamI don't think it was Adam's product.
LeeHis his production company as well, so I mean.
ChrisBut what's funny though, right? Ben Stiller is in it, and it was him in, uh, what's it called? Tropic Thunder.
LeeTropic Thunder, yeah.
Chriswho talked about, yeah.
ChrisLike so, add that.
ChrisLike.
LeeWell.
ChrisThey must know.
LeeYeah, I almost wonder if it's.
ChrisBut it's owned at, you know, it's not aimed at us, is it?
ChrisIt's it's aimed at us probably at the age of, you know, 14.
LeeSee, this is the problem, I found it, I couldn't work out who it was supposed to be for.
LeeBecause it had too much swearing in it for you to show a small child, but Adam Sandler's performance was like Ernest P. Worrell.
LeeEffectively, like it was full on Ernest Saves Christmas or Ernest Goes to Camp.
ChrisYeah.
LeeSo and everybody else is playing it not straight, but straight.
LeeAnd yeah, so I was like, well, he's acting as if he's trying to sell this to small children, but they all keep saying shit.
LeeUm.
ChrisAnd and like you say, the the mother's T-shirts.
LeeMother's T-shirt collection, I want more than anything in the world.
AdamWell, you mentioned that because you did say the T-shirts were good.
ChrisMuff's Diving School.
LeeThe mother has bought a load of T-shirts from the thrift store, um, but she doesn't know what any of them mean, so she's just keep wearing like a T-shirt with boner doner written across the front.
LeeLike it's just like it's hilarious.
LeeIt really.
LeeThat was the thing, like he had some really good elements to it, but he just took his performance out, I would have enjoyed it much more.
ChrisYeah, yeah, it's low, it's like, isn't it? Just, yeah.
LeeIt's not a terrible film.
LeeUm, but I don't think it's going to be an enduring Halloween classic, unfortunately.
LeeBut good effort.
LeeI'll just for the record, I did suggest that maybe we all watched it.
LeeBefore this evening.
ChrisI just could not.
LeeBring myself.
ChrisI think you should have watched it and then given us some of your your own impersonations of him.
AdamNo.
AdamI think I'll stick with the, I think I'll stick with the gift I sent.
LeeYeah.
AdamGood cat guy, hi.
LeeWe would definitely lose listeners, I think if, uh, we would offend somebody if Adam were to do his impression of Adam Sandler.
ChrisYeah.
AdamBearing in mind what we have had to cut out, so yeah.
LeeWell, yeah.
Lee20 minutes out of last week's episode, but yeah, let's not go back into that.
AdamThen we've got to cut this.
LeeUh, excellent, well done, Chris.
LeeUh, anything else?
ChrisNo, no, that's that's me this week.
LeeSterling effort, fantastic, well done.
LeeUm, Adam, have you caught up with anything?
AdamI've listened to on BBC, BBC Radio 4 and on the BBC Sounds app, you can listen to the whole of, they've done an adaption of the 70s kids show, um, like drama, Children of the Stones.
LeeOh, okay.
LeeAnd we had a recommendation to watch that, didn't we, from a listener?
AdamI think we did actually, or certainly, we've had a few because, oh, yeah, because there was, um, I think there was some Lovecraft, like they'd been doing quite a few good adaptations on there.
AdamUm, and this was by, this is done by Battle Gap, who are the guys who did, uh, recent audio versions of Blood on Satan's Claw and The Hellbound Heart.
LeeNice.
AdamThe novella that Hellraiser is based on, but they stick to the, uh, they stick to the book much more closely.
AdamUm.
AdamThey've updated it, and I'll admit at the very start, I was kind of, I'm not sure if I like this, because like the the main two characters like a father and daughter.
AdamIn the original it's father and son.
AdamBut in this, I think I found both of them a bit sort of like, oh, fuck off, because they're both, you know, they're both hurting and stuff like that.
AdamBut it's sort of, yeah, it was still a bit sort of, no, can you, yeah, just, no, this sounds stupid.
AdamUm.
AdamBut I gradually got into it and, uh, the character of Kendrick, who is like the main villain, he's played by Reece Shearsmith.
AdamUm.
AdamThe dad, which I found quite, which was quite odd, like I say, that I did find his character a bit annoying, it's Steve Oram.
LeeOh, okay.
AdamWho is, who is really great, so I do think it might be more of a writing thing than, certainly than a performance thing, because I do like Steve Oram quite naturally.
AdamAnd Ralph Ineson's in it as well, but it's, it is, it's well done.
AdamBut it takes its time getting there because the original bit, like they've, they've sort of updated it, so the the daughter's got a, does like a podcast herself.
AdamOf like strange and mysterious stuff.
AdamAnd it all feels a bit sort of, mm, oh, you've crowbarred that in a bit.
AdamUh, but then you get the essence of the actual story, sort of, when once you actually get into the story itself, much, actually, I mean, in fairness, that is probably much how the first, the the actual original series works, in that the first episode is very sort of, because it's the setup, it's quite slow.
AdamBut then as you get drawn into it, you, you know, it does actually get into some spooky and quite creepy areas.
AdamUm.
AdamSo, definitely, definitely worth a listen.
AdamUm.
AdamIt's and like, it's all there, it's all free, I mean, I think I, I listened to it most like through an afternoon because I think the longest episode's maybe 20 minutes.
AdamAnd some of them are only like 15 and stuff like that, so it's quite, it's quite quick.
AdamUm.
AdamA quick listen, and it, and also it probably would give you an indication whether you wanted to try out the original.
LeeYeah.
LeeYeah, definitely, if you can appoint me in the direction of this, I'm very interested to check it out, to be honest.
AdamYeah.
AdamYeah, also.
AdamIf you go on like, if you just go on the BBC website on like iPlayer or whatever and put in Children of the Stones, um, it you'll find it.
AdamAnd I think it's, it's up for at least a year.
LeeExcellent.
AdamThey've been pretty long term with a lot of this stuff now, which is good.
AdamUm.
AdamUh, the only other thing that in the week that, fucking hell, how many times am I going to say, uh, sorry.
LeeIt's all right.
AdamIn the week, the trailer for The Show came out, which is the film written by Alan Moore, like which is, uh, I think, possibly Andrew O'Neill's in it.
AdamUh, he certainly got a thank you on the director's post about the, uh, film coming out.
AdamLike the trailer coming out.
AdamUm, and it's getting quite good, uh, reactions.
AdamIt's like, I think it's been premiered at a festival this week.
AdamAnd seems to be getting some good notices and everything.
AdamSo I went back and watched before this, the director and Alan Moore, like, the same director, Mitch Jenkins and Alan Moore had created what they called showpieces.
AdamWhich were like almost like proof of concept for this film to get it funded, but they did it through Kickstarter and stuff like that.
AdamAnd I just rewatched those last night in preparation, and I do have to recommend them.
AdamThey are sort of very.
AdamIt's very Alan Moore, but it's like, it's almost very, it has a very British.
AdamSense ability to it, but equally it's basically, it's about people dying and going to not hell.
AdamBut a nocturnal version of Northampton.
LeeHa!
AdamAnd and here's the best bit, that appears to have been created by like an equivalent of Peter Cook.
AdamBecause it's basically Alan Moore is part of a double act called Metatron and Matchbright, and obviously Matchbright, um, sort of Lucifer.
AdamAnd Metatron is like Metatron, which is the voice of God.
LeeYeah.
AdamUh, so Frank Metatron and Nikki Matchbright, who were this 60s double act, very much like Pete and Dud.
AdamBut somehow Metatron was an occultist, and he somehow after their death created this other world where he is God.
AdamAnd Dudley Moore is the devil.
ChrisHmm.
AdamAnd it's, yeah, it's a very sort of dark, funny, odd thing.
AdamAnd now I am desperate, even more so than when I just watched the trailer.
AdamBecause I'd seen, I'd seen them before and stuff.
AdamBut even before I, even once I saw the trailer, but yeah, watch, rewatch them the other night, I was just sort of like, right, I've got to see this fucking film now.
LeeYeah.
AdamBecause even down to the fact that I know that the, I noticed, and this is the first time I've noticed it, the person who is playing the main character is Tom Burke.
AdamWho is the son of.
AdamThe original Doctor Watson in, uh, the Jeremy Brett Sherlock Holmes.
LeeOh, yeah.
AdamDavid Burke, I think it is.
AdamWho turned, who appears in, um, some of the MR James adaptations that they did a few years back.
LeeYes.
AdamAnd yeah, Tom, and it's his son, Tom Burke.
AdamUm, who also, I believe, was in, I think he was in number 13.
LeeI think he's like, yeah, he played the Lane Lord.
AdamYeah.
AdamAnd, um, yeah, he's very, um, but I noticed that his voice appears in the very first film.
AdamLike he's credited as the voice on the end of the phone, and it's like, I didn't, you know, it's, it's literally nothing.
AdamIt's you barely hear it.
AdamBut obviously it's like this has been planned, planning and sort of bubbling in their heads for so long.
AdamThat they'd already contacted this guy that's like, right, eventually you're going to play the main role.
AdamBut can you literally phone a performance in for us for like a day?
AdamSo, yeah.
AdamUm.
AdamBut no, it's, I highly recommend tracking down showpieces if you can.
AdamAnd I myself, I've got to see this damn film.
AdamBecause.
AdamHe's getting good notices, but also from people who haven't necessarily like watched all of showpieces and stuff, so I think it's something that probably works on its own.
LeeHmm.
AdamBut, uh.
LeeExcellent.
AdamYeah, so and that's all the weather.
LeeYou saying about trailers.
LeeActually, I wasn't going to mention it because I've watched a buttload of stuff, but I'm going to keep it brief, I'm going to try and keep it down to a minute per movie-ish.
ChrisI just noticed something weird happened to Craig, I don't know if that's important or not.
AdamWhat's happened to Craig?
ChrisHe's disappeared and turned into two dots that are spinning around.
LeeI can still see him.
AdamI can still see him.
ChrisOkay, all right, fair enough.
LeeUh, I'm not editing that out.
LeeUh, yeah, we're recording on, uh, Discord, and, uh, Craig is doing something weird for Chris.
ChrisYeah.
LeeRight, so talking of trailers.
LeeI saw the trailer this week, um, from, Adam has got a lollipop there.
LeeUh, and it's a pumpkin, lovely.
ChrisOh.
AdamIt's a Jacob's Trikaroo.
LeeIt's.
AdamIt's a lovely orangey biscuit.
LeeOh, lovely.
LeeIt is Trikaroo, well spotted.
LeeI was like, he picked it up and he had a bite missing out of it.
LeeUm.
AdamNo, that's being a fat bastard, that's why I had a bite.
LeeWhich leads me into the trailer.
LeeUh, so the trailer for Fatman.
LeeHas anyone seen the trailer for Fatman?
AdamNo.
ChrisNo.
LeeHoly shit.
LeeRight, now.
LeeIt's coming out this Christmas.
LeeMel Gibson plays Santa Claus.
LeeSanta Claus has given a horrible turn of a child, a piece of coal.
LeeThe child has hired a hitman.
LeeAnd it's Santa Claus versus a hitman.
LeeAnd Santa Claus is played by Mel Gibson.
LeeIt looks hilarious and really, really good fun.
LeeYes.
LeeSo I shall be checking that out.
LeeIt it was one of those somebody put the trailer up and I was like, film called Fatman.
LeeAnd then I started watching it.
LeeI was like, he's supposed to be Santa Claus.
LeeAnd then it all just unraveled and I was like, it's Santa Claus with guns.
LeeFighting another man with guns, it's just going to be exceptional, so go and check out that trailer, because it's really got me excited.
LeeUm.
LeeSo, stuff I've watched this week in order.
LeeUm.
LeeNumber one, I watched Buffy the Vampire Slayer, the original movie from 1992.
AdamYeah.
LeeUm, it was strange.
LeeUm, I quite, I quite enjoyed it.
LeeUm.
LeeBut it hasn't aged particularly well.
LeeUm, and the problem is, again, like we were saying with, um, Adam Sandler in, uh, in Hubie.
LeeThe, so the main vampire is Rutger Hauer, and his main assistant is played by Pee-wee Herman.
AdamYeah.
LeeAnd he's in a completely different movie to everybody else, everybody else is doing it kind of straight comedy, and he is doing this crazy slapstick mental nonsense.
ChrisYeah, he does, doesn't he?
ChrisBut just as a weird aside, I saw that Tim Burton directed the first Pee-wee Herman film.
AdamYeah.
AdamPee-wee's Big Adventure is Tim Burton.
ChrisYeah.
LeeI've not seen Pee-wee's, uh, Big Adventure or Pee-wee's Playhouse, maybe I should.
ChrisBut he does play that character in everything, doesn't he?
ChrisHe's he's.
LeeYeah, I think he does, unfortunately.
LeeAnd the thing is, he doesn't look anything like him in Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
LeeLike he he looks, and that was why I was like, why is this guy acting completely different?
LeeLike it's funny because Jennifer said it was the one bit she remembered was his death, because she remembered it being hilarious.
LeeAnd it is, but it's so tonally different to the whole rest of the film.
ChrisBut that actually makes me want to watch this just to.
LeeIt's a good film.
LeeI I enjoyed it.
ChrisI think I might have seen it at the cinema, possibly.
ChrisI I'm fairly certain I watched it because I I seem to remember I watched this, but then never watched the series.
LeeI never saw the series.
LeeAdam saw all of them.
ChrisI I know loads of people.
AdamI saw series 5 and then bloody, um, Granada lost their digital license.
LeeYeah.
AdamHalfway through a series, the bastard.
LeeUm.
LeeYeah, so I I mean, yeah.
LeeIt's pretty good.
LeeUm, it's funny how bad the vampires look now.
LeeLike they look really, really shit.
LeeAnd and I think I saw this, so this came out in '92, I think I saw it on TV.
LeeWhen it was initially premiered on TV.
LeeSo that must have been about '95 and I haven't seen it again since.
LeeUm.
LeeSo, yeah, it's been a long time for me.
LeeUm.
LeeI then followed it up the next night with a film that I have seen very recently, because I watch it at least every six months, I watched Elvira, Mistress of the Dark.
ChrisHmm.
LeeFrom 1988.
LeeSolid movie.
LeeWe need to cover that, it's so much fun.
LeeIt's it's so campy and fun.
LeeUh, and the terrible 80s song that has to be in every film is right at the very end.
LeeSo you can watch up and until that point and then just turn it off.
LeeIt's great.
LeeUm.
LeeSo then I went to Shudder, um, and watched their new release that came out this week.
LeeUm, I watched Scare Me.
ChrisHmm.
AdamOh, yes.
LeeUm, it should have been called Yes And The Movie.
AdamOh, all right.
AdamOkay.
LeeIt I really, I I enjoyed it.
LeeI genuinely did, I was a little bit let down by the end, but.
LeeI couldn't work out how they were going to end it anyway.
LeeIt's it's.
LeeUm, so the idea is it's a guy, he wants to be a writer, so he's gone out and he's hired, um, a little cabin on, um, like a park in upstate New York.
LeeWhere they just have these little log cabins set out and they're all separate.
LeeSo he goes and stays in it during the winter, during the snow.
LeeTo lock himself in and effectively write.
LeeAnd while he's out jogging, he bumps into the woman who's hiring the cabin opposite him, and she has just written the biggest best seller, best selling horror movie.
LeeBest selling horror book in, like, forever and everyone's claiming it's one of the greatest books ever written.
LeeSo.
LeeUm, they have a power cut that night.
LeeAnd she goes over to his.
LeeBecause she's like, look, we're locked it, we've got nothing to do, we've got no power, we can't do anything.
LeeSo she goes over there and they decide to tell each other scary stories to keep each other entertained.
LeeUm.
LeeBut they kind of, they don't just tell them, they kind of act them out as they go in, so it's like having two drama students locked in a room trying to out improv each other.
LeeUm.
LeeGenuinely, really, really funny.
LeeI really liked it.
LeeUm.
LeeUh, he's a bit of a dick, but he's supposed to be.
LeeUm.
LeeYeah, and she's just thoroughly hilarious and awesome.
LeeUm.
LeeBut yeah, it's it's a really good film.
LeeUh then a third character comes in about halfway through, who's just totally falls into their little dynamic and it it goes really well, it's a really good film.
LeeSo.
ChrisIs is funny because from that, you know, it's hard to see how they make that into a full film, but yeah, it's in the details.
LeeWell, it's it's a bit like, um, it's a bit like an anthology film, but instead of having the wrap around story and seeing it.
LeeIt's one person going, right, I'm going to tell you a story, it's about a werewolf, and this happens and they kind of they put special effects on.
LeeSo that although it's only one person talking and acting it out, like they put the silhouettes in, so when he's pretending to be a werewolf, his shadow looks like a werewolf.
ChrisOh, okay, yeah.
LeeAnd when she's doing a funny voice, they put like a big echoy thing on it, so it actually sounds like a demon voice, yeah, and it's, yeah, it is like being locked in a cabin with two hilarious drama students.
LeeIt was really good fun.
LeeUm.
LeeI then watched, uh, Charlie Brown, the Great Pumpkin.
LeeBecause it's Halloween tradition, it's amazing, don't need to say anything about that.
LeeOther than if you've never watched The Great Pumpkin, it's The Great Pumpkin, Charlie Brown.
LeeGo and watch it, it's 25 minutes long, it's an absolute classic.
LeeAnd show your children.
LeeThere's nothing scary in it.
LeeIt's fantastic.
AdamThere's there's a redone, uh, not redone, but like a modern version of Peanuts.
AdamDoo, doo, doo, doo, Peanuts.
AdamUm, yeah, they haven't adopted that as the thing.
AdamBut, um, I was, yeah, um, we watched it a few times with Ted.
AdamAnd Christ on a bike, every single one of them's bloody annoying, though.
LeeOh, really?
AdamYeah, they're just, they're all a bit of a personality.
AdamI know that's the whole point.
AdamBut it's like, oh, they're just gags.
LeeYeah.
AdamSo.
AdamOh, dear.
AdamNo.
LeeYeah.
AdamSo I might have to give that a miss, although we did show Ted Nightmare Before Christmas today.
LeeOh.
AdamUm, I think he enjoyed it because when, when it finished, he threw a paddy.
LeeOh.
AdamI think he was, I think he was quite enjoying it.
AdamAnd also I, there's one bit in there that I just forgot about, which felt like every band I've ever been in.
AdamIs I forgot about the bit where he's trying to get the town, you know they've got like the town band in it.
AdamIt's just like all the with all the accordions and stuff like that, trying to get him, trying to get them to play like, uh, Merry Christmas or whatever.
AdamAnd it just, just immediately minor keys it and it just sounds like a funeral march.
AdamThat's like, yep, that's, yeah.
AdamLet's, let's suck the joy out of this one, come on.
LeeI have been in that band with you.
AdamYes.
LeeUm.
LeeExcellent.
LeeRight.
LeeSo.
LeeWithout further ado.
AdamOr a don't.
LeeOr don't.
AdamSorry.
LeeUm, I'm very keen to hear.
LeeSo, Chris.
LeeBeing the morbid son of a bitch that you are.
LeeWhat did you make of Hereditary?
ChrisWell, of course, as you guess, no surprises here, that that is a a masterpiece of of filming.
ChrisYeah, very nice.
ChrisUm.
ChrisNo, I I did mention to Adam just before we started, I'll say again now that I knew it was Ari Aster, so I had that in my mind, I knew that it was not a comedy.
ChrisSo I was like, that's it, that's fine, we're settling in, this is going to be good.
ChrisBut as it was unfolding, I was like, ah, no, I don't actually know what film Ari Aster did that we watched.
ChrisAnd of course, you know, he's going on, and in in a way, possibly that was good.
ChrisBecause I did have the surprise where it's like, I don't know where this is going.
ChrisSo, um, obviously at some point, probably halfway through, I realized, oh, yes, of course, Midsommar.
ChrisBecause he's definitely got some similarities.
ChrisUm.
ChrisBut yeah, that is a that is a pretty seriously dark, uh, tragedy.
ChrisUh, but, you know.
ChrisUm.
ChrisI do remember, and I was going to ask, how much details have we got about this?
ChrisI'm assuming Adam has quite a lot.
ChrisBut I do remember that Dean was the one that gave us quite a lot of the explanation on Midsommar.
AdamOn Midsommar, yeah.
ChrisTo do with the the symbols.
AdamWell, yeah, a lot of, again, a lot has gone into this in terms of like.
ChrisOkay.
AdamUh, that.
AdamI've.
AdamI've read some, I've read a lot of stuff like interviews with Ari Aster on the way up to.
ChrisSo just.
ChrisJust set me, so why, what is like why is he so fascinated to do both Midsommar and this around similar themes?
ChrisLike why, like has he had some just crazy experiences?
AdamBecause apparently.
AdamHe's just got, he's got a, he's already written I think is something like 10 scripts.
AdamAnd they're the 10 scripts he wants to do.
ChrisOkay.
LeeI want to see every single one of those.
LeeRight now.
AdamBut he and he, um, yeah, from what I gather, he's sort of everything's been pre-planned.
AdamHe seems to be very, it almost feels like a conspiracy how he does the film.
AdamBecause it's like, for example, the composer on this is a guy called Colin Stetson.
ChrisWell, he did a very good job.
AdamYeah.
AdamAnd apparently like Ari Aster was in contact about with him about doing the film two years before they made it.
ChrisOkay.
AdamYeah and that's, do you know what I mean, that's a long gestation period.
AdamAnd he obviously has, like Toni Collette apparently called him the most prepared director that she'd ever worked with.
ChrisWell, he he certainly, I mean, she's great, but he certainly worked well with her.
AdamSo, well, he turned up with like a 75-page, um, like shooting script for the cinematographer.
AdamBefore they'd even scouted locations or anything, so he, and but then his whole thing with, um.
AdamYeah.
AdamNot so much with Midsommar, because I think by then he'd been rumbled, but he seems to be a bit off-handed in interviews for Hereditary about the occult stuff.
AdamJust saying, oh, you know, I think it was just, it's, you know, it's just bits and bits and bobs that you pick up and you know, and it's like, you've, there's.
AdamThere's a lot more to it than that, and I mean, Midsommar obviously in terms of like the runic stuff.
AdamAnd the, uh, sort of paganism and things like that, and similarly with this.
AdamI mean, I'm going to go, I'm going to go straight into it because I've got it, I've got quite, there's quite a quite a bit on here.
ChrisDetailed tone of.
AdamSo.
AdamKing Paimon is a real figure.
AdamThat I was, I was trying to find a way of putting basically saying, he's a real demon spirit.
AdamOr demon or spirit.
AdamBut when I say real, what I mean is is that outside of this film.
LeeYeah.
AdamThat is and he, uh, King Paimon is named in a number of early grimmoires, including The Lesser Key of Solomon.
AdamJohan Weyer's, oh, wow, I was a bit bold when I wrote this one down, because I was like, yeah, I'll you'll read that, no problem.
LeeOkay.
AdamPseudomonarchia Daemonium.
ChrisHmm.
AdamAnd, and here's one for you, blast from the past, the book of Abramelin.
LeeAh.
AdamWhich, as discussed on Welcome to Horror, episode 34, A Dark Song.
AdamWhich features the Abramelin ritual.
LeeIt does.
AdamAnd again, that was a film that we talked about where it had a lot of genuine sort of occult research going into it.
AdamAnd it felt real.
AdamAnd similarly with this, you know, it's, um.
AdamSo I'm going to.
AdamWell, actually, yeah, I've got, I've basically got, here's the bio of Paimon, of King Paimon, sorry.
AdamOf King Paimon, sorry.
AdamOne of the Kings of Hell, with various texts describing him as either the third, sixth, ninth, or 22nd King.
AdamThe grimmoire of Pope of Pope Honorius states that he is the King of the West.
AdamAnd the Abramelin text refers to him as one of the eight dukes.
AdamHe is loyal to Lucifer and is commander of two further kings.
AdamBebel and, Abam.
AdamI was trying not to say Balam.
LeeThank you.
AdamHe also commands with variance across sources 25 to 200 legions of spirits.
AdamHis appearance is described as a man riding a dromedary, wearing a crown.
AdamThe camel too is sometimes crowned.
AdamHe is preceded by men playing loud music.
AdamParticularly crashing symbols and trumpets, which is obviously something that Colin Stetson injects into the soundtrack.
AdamWhenever there's anything more supernatural going on and things like that.
AdamAnd in fact, someone reckons that, uh, the name Paimon means the sound of tinkling or the sound of bells.
AdamBut it was like in an undisclosed language and this was someone not that long ago.
AdamIt was like, but so.
AdamUm, again, that sort of turns up on the soundtrack.
AdamUm.
AdamKing Paimon is described as having a feminine face features, but uses and identifies with male pronouns.
AdamHe may have the webbed feet of a waterfowl.
AdamThere you go.
AdamUm.
AdamIf you summon King Paimon, you must look to the northwest and make an offering accompanied by candles, symbols and music.
AdamIf he appears alone, a sacrifice must be made to summon Bebel and Abilam, the two kings he commands to do his bidding.
AdamThe conjurer must first command King Paimon to speak in their own language, otherwise he will only speak in his native tongue.
AdamAll requests must be made without fear.
AdamIn terms of his powers and what he can provide for the conjurer.
AdamHe is mainly identified as a teacher with a knowledge of all sciences, arts and other secret things.
AdamHe can bestow power and influence on the conjurer, including dignities, yeah, dignities, titles, familiars, and power over others' will.
ChrisOkay, so.
ChrisWait, wait, so, so this is for summoning him.
ChrisAnd he can bestow that on the conjurer.
AdamYes.
ChrisBut in this, I thought they were saying that, um, Peter becomes Paimon.
AdamWell, this is yeah, but this it's the cult who worship Paimon.
AdamWho want Paimon on Earth.
ChrisRight.
AdamSo that he can grant them these powers.
ChrisOkay.
AdamYou know, so I've got the bit where it says riches to the conjurer, and really, is there any more plain expression of power really these days than just being rich?
LeeYeah.
AdamYou know, it's, it's crass, but it's very true that if nowadays that that is purely what equates to power.
LeeYeah.
AdamAnd.
LeeLook at the president of the US.
AdamExactly.
AdamAnd so.
AdamBut apparently according to the book of Abramelin, um, he has the knowledge of past and future events, the powers of flight, materialization of people and objects, breathing underwater and the reanimation of the dead.
ChrisHmm.
AdamWhich obviously that seems to be much more Hereditary's take on his powers, the conjurer will need to fulfill King Paimon's own requests.
AdamIn order that he may share his powers.
AdamSo it's presumably in terms of Hereditary, he wants physical form on Earth.
ChrisHmm.
AdamAnd so they've provided that and they've and hope to gain from that.
AdamUm.
AdamBefore the fall, King Paimon belonged to either the angelic hierarchies of dominions or cherubim.
AdamSources differ.
AdamAnd the sigil that's used in the film, uh, which appears on the necklaces, the door mats, it's on the telegraph pole that decapitates the daughter.
AdamThat is the symbol of King Paimon.
AdamThat is.
LeeYeah, I'm looking at it right now on Google, it's it's everywhere.
LeeYeah, it's just like, it's it's a very it seems to be a relatively well-known, well not well-known.
LeeBut if you Google it, yeah, it's all linked in, it isn't just the movie.
LeeIt's a.
AdamAnd.
AdamBut.
AdamHere's.
AdamHere's Ari Aster talking about it, um, I wanted to avoid the devil, it's been done so many times.
AdamSo I researched, looked for a demon in demonology, and Paimon struck me as one that made sense.
AdamI have no ties to the occult, and I've heard from a few sources that even Paimon Paimon is pass A.
AdamAnd obvious among occultists.
AdamUltimately, Paimon was a product of me, he came in pretty late, and I just needed a name in mythology.
AdamThink.
AdamEven if that's that's the, I think you've, you've done more than just picked a name.
LeeYeah.
AdamYou know, it follows a lot of the the things that are in this mythology.
LeeYeah.
AdamAre very, yeah, they just, it's just all in the film.
LeeIt seems to play his genius down quite a lot, from what I can see, like he he's done so much background research.
LeeAnd made everything so relevant and brilliant, and then kind of goes, it was just a bit off the cuff and it's like, no, it it wasn't, like that's the thing about his stuff.
LeeIt flows so well, it's someone who's really done the research and really understood it.
LeeAnd really ingrains it in the story.
LeeAs he say.
LeeIt, you know, I mean, look at The Exorcist, incredible film as that is, you could just switch Pazuzu with anybody and it almost doesn't matter, whereas with this it is, it's integral to the whole story, it's it's all around that mythology.
AdamYeah, so it's obvious that even when he's picked this, even if it was like a late stage, he's then gone back and revised the work and you know, and made that effort.
LeeYeah, and made that effort.
AdamHe's made that effort.
AdamUm.
AdamBut also, um, and I have to say, I think Joan's great.
AdamBecause she does just feel like a lovely old woman.
ChrisYeah.
AdamUntil you realize what's going on.
AdamBut, um, she's been, uh, she was in True Detective.
AdamShe was the murderer's wife in True Detective, you haven't made any flowers all me lately.
LeeOh, God.
AdamYeah.
AdamAnd, um, but she's also in a film called Compliance, which is a film about a genuinely horrible incident, um, and I've seen, I've didn't remember from that, but I'd now realizing she's in it.
AdamAgain, she's very chameleon.
AdamShe's she doesn't always.
AdamUm, you know, it's not just dafty old lady roles or anything like that, or you know, she she can be basically girl Hitler in The Handmaid's Tale.
AdamSo, yeah, it's sort of, it's quite sort of.
AdamShe's quite impressive.
AdamBut I do love like with the mat where it's the mom made matts for everyone.
LeeYeah.
AdamAnd sort of and it's it's weird because watching it.
AdamThis time around, I was like, fuck me, they really signpost that, didn't they?
LeeYeah.
AdamThe very first.
AdamNo.
AdamThat didn't.
AdamDidn't register.
LeeNo.
LeeNo.
AdamAnd that's why.
AdamThat's why I think I enjoyed it more on the second watch.
AdamGenuinely because the first time I was like, oh, no, so she's.
AdamApart from apart from it does really.
AdamI mean.
AdamIt's like that bit where.
AdamYou know, she she's obviously because there's obviously like there's one's where it's.
AdamUm, like her mom in the hospice.
LeeYeah.
AdamAnd.
AdamSort of and it's it's weird because watching it.
AdamThis time around.
AdamI was like, fuck me, they really signpost that, didn't they?
LeeYeah.
AdamThe very first.
AdamNo.
AdamThat didn't.
AdamDidn't register.
LeeNo.
LeeNo.
AdamAnd that's why.
AdamThat's why I think I enjoyed it more on the second watch.
AdamGenuinely because the first time I was like, oh, no, so she's.
AdamApart from apart from it does really.
AdamI mean.
AdamIt's like that bit where.
AdamYou know, she she's obviously because there's obviously like there's one's where it's.
AdamUm, like her mom in the hospice.
LeeYeah.
AdamAnd.
AdamSort of and it's it's weird because watching it.
AdamThis time around.
AdamI was like, fuck me, they really signpost that, didn't they?
LeeYeah.
AdamThe very first.
AdamNo.
AdamThat didn't.
AdamDidn't register.
LeeNo.
LeeNo.
AdamAnd that's why.
AdamThat's why I think I enjoyed it more on the second watch.
AdamGenuinely because the first time I was like, oh, no, so she's.
AdamApart from apart from it does really.
AdamI mean.
AdamIt's like that bit where.
AdamYou know, she she's obviously because there's obviously like there's one's where it's.
AdamUm, like her mom in the hospice.
LeeYeah.
AdamAnd.
AdamSort of and it's it's weird because watching it.
AdamThis time around.
AdamI was like, fuck me, they really signpost that, didn't they?
LeeYeah.
AdamThe very first.
AdamNo.
AdamThat didn't.
AdamDidn't register.
LeeNo.
LeeNo.
AdamAnd that's why.
AdamThat's why I think I enjoyed it more on the second watch.
AdamGenuinely because the first time I was like, oh, no, so she's.
AdamApart from apart from it does really.
AdamI mean.
AdamIt's like that bit where.
AdamYou know, she she's obviously because there's obviously like there's one's where it's.
AdamUm, like her mom in the hospice.
LeeYeah.
AdamAnd.
AdamSort of and it's it's weird because watching it.
AdamThis time around.
AdamI was like, fuck me, they really signpost that, didn't they?
LeeYeah.
AdamThe very first.
AdamNo.
AdamThat didn't.
AdamDidn't register.
LeeNo.
LeeNo.
AdamAnd that's why.
AdamThat's why I think I enjoyed it more on the second watch.
AdamGenuinely because the first time I was like, oh, no, so she's.
AdamApart from apart from it does really.
AdamI mean.
AdamIt's like that bit where.
AdamYou know, she she's obviously because there's obviously like there's one's where it's.
AdamUm, like her mom in the hospice.
LeeYeah.
AdamAnd.
AdamSort of and it's it's weird because watching it.
AdamThis time around.
AdamI was like, fuck me, they really signpost that, didn't they?
LeeYeah.
AdamThe very first.
AdamNo.
AdamThat didn't.
AdamDidn't register.
LeeNo.
LeeNo.
AdamAnd that's why.
AdamThat's why I think I enjoyed it more on the second watch.
AdamGenuinely because the first time I was like, oh, no, so she's.
AdamApart from apart from it does really.
AdamI mean.
AdamIt's like that bit where.
AdamYou know, she she's obviously because there's obviously like there's one's where it's.
AdamUm, like her mom in the hospice.
LeeYeah.
AdamAnd.
AdamSort of and it's it's weird because watching it.
AdamThis time around.
AdamI was like, fuck me, they really signpost that, didn't they?
LeeYeah.
AdamThe very first.
AdamNo.
AdamThat didn't.
AdamDidn't register.
LeeNo.
LeeNo.
AdamAnd that's why.
AdamThat's why I think I enjoyed it more on the second watch.
AdamGenuinely because the first time I was like, oh, no, so she's.
AdamApart from apart from it does really.
AdamI mean.
AdamIt's like that bit where.
AdamYou know, she she's obviously because there's obviously like there's one's where it's.
AdamUm, like her mom in the hospice.
LeeYeah.
AdamAnd.
AdamSort of and it's it's weird because watching it.
AdamThis time around.
AdamI was like, fuck me, they really signpost that, didn't they?
LeeYeah.
AdamThe very first.
AdamNo.
AdamThat didn't.
AdamDidn't register.
LeeNo.
LeeNo.
AdamAnd that's why.
AdamThat's why I think I enjoyed it more on the second watch.
AdamGenuinely because the first time I was like, oh, no, so she's.
AdamApart from apart from it does really.
AdamI mean.
AdamIt's like that bit where.
AdamYou know, she she's obviously because there's obviously like there's one's where it's.
AdamUm, like her mom in the hospice.
LeeYeah.
AdamAnd.
AdamSort of and it's it's weird because watching it.
AdamThis time around.
AdamI was like, fuck me, they really signpost that, didn't they?
LeeYeah.
AdamThe very first.
AdamNo.
AdamThat didn't.
AdamDidn't register.
LeeNo.
LeeNo.
AdamAnd that's why.
AdamThat's why I think I enjoyed it more on the second watch.
AdamGenuinely because the first time I was like, oh, no, so she's.
AdamApart from apart from it does really.
AdamI mean.
AdamIt's like that bit where.
AdamYou know, she she's obviously because there's obviously like there's one's where it's.
AdamUm, like her mom in the hospice.
LeeYeah.
AdamAnd.
AdamSort of and it's it's weird because watching it.
AdamThis time around.
AdamI was like, fuck me, they really signpost that, didn't they?
LeeYeah.
AdamThe very first.
AdamNo.
AdamThat didn't.
AdamDidn't register.
LeeNo.
LeeNo.
AdamAnd that's why.
AdamThat's why I think I enjoyed it more on the second watch.
AdamGenuinely because the first time I was like, oh, no, so she's.
AdamApart from apart from it does really.
AdamI mean.
AdamIt's like that bit where.
AdamYou know, she she's obviously because there's obviously like there's one's where it's.
AdamUm, like her mom in the hospice.
LeeYeah.
AdamAnd.
AdamSort of and it's it's weird because watching it.
AdamThis time around.
AdamI was like, fuck me, they really signpost that, didn't they?
LeeYeah.
AdamThe very first.
AdamNo.
AdamThat didn't.
AdamDidn't register.
LeeNo.
LeeNo.
AdamAnd that's why.
AdamThat's why I think I enjoyed it more on the second watch.
AdamGenuinely because the first time I was like, oh, no, so she's.
AdamApart from apart from it does really.
AdamI mean.
AdamIt's like that bit where.
AdamYou know, she she's obviously because there's obviously like there's one's where it's.
AdamUm, like her mom in the hospice.
LeeYeah.
AdamAnd.
AdamSort of and it's it's weird because watching it.
AdamThis time around.
AdamI was like, fuck me, they really signpost that, didn't they?
LeeYeah.
AdamThe very first.
AdamNo.
AdamThat didn't.
AdamDidn't register.
LeeNo.
LeeNo.
AdamAnd that's why.
AdamThat's why I think I enjoyed it more on the second watch.
AdamGenuinely because the first time I was like, oh, no, so she's.
AdamApart from apart from it does really.
AdamI mean.
AdamIt's like that bit where.
AdamYou know, she she's obviously because there's obviously like there's one's where it's.
AdamUm, like her mom in the hospice.
LeeYeah.
AdamAnd.
AdamSort of and it's it's weird because watching it.
AdamThis time around.
AdamI was like, fuck me, they really signpost that, didn't they?
LeeYeah.
AdamThe very first.
AdamNo.
AdamThat didn't.
AdamDidn't register.
LeeNo.
LeeNo.
AdamAnd that's why.
AdamThat's why I think I enjoyed it more on the second watch.
AdamGenuinely because the first time I was like, oh, no, so she's.
AdamApart from apart from it does really.
AdamI mean.
AdamIt's like that bit where.
AdamYou know, she she's obviously because there's obviously like there's one's where it's.
AdamUm, like her mom in the hospice.
LeeYeah.
AdamAnd.
AdamSort of and it's it's weird because watching it.
AdamThis time around.
AdamI was like, fuck me, they really signpost that, didn't they?
LeeYeah.
AdamThe very first.
AdamNo.
AdamThat didn't.
AdamDidn't register.
LeeNo.
LeeNo.
AdamAnd that's why.
AdamThat's why I think I enjoyed it more on the second watch.
AdamGenuinely because the first time I was like, oh, no, so she's.
AdamApart from apart from it does really.
AdamI mean.
AdamIt's like that bit where.
AdamYou know, she she's obviously because there's obviously like there's one's where it's.
AdamUm, like her mom in the hospice.
LeeYeah.
AdamAnd.
AdamSort of and it's it's weird because watching it.
AdamThis time around.
AdamI was like, fuck me, they really signpost that, didn't they?
LeeYeah.
AdamThe very first.
AdamNo.
AdamThat didn't.
AdamDidn't register.
LeeNo.
LeeNo.
AdamAnd that's why.
AdamThat's why I think I enjoyed it more on the second watch.
AdamGenuinely because the first time I was like, oh, no, so she's.
AdamApart from apart from it does really.
AdamI mean.
AdamIt's like that bit where.
AdamYou know, she she's obviously because there's obviously like there's one's where it's.
AdamUm, like her mom in the hospice.
LeeYeah.
AdamAnd.
AdamSort of and it's it's weird because watching it.
AdamThis time around.
AdamI was like, fuck me, they really signpost that, didn't they?
LeeYeah.
AdamThe very first.
AdamNo.
AdamThat didn't.
AdamDidn't register.
LeeNo.
LeeNo.
AdamAnd that's why.
AdamThat's why I think I enjoyed it more on the second watch.
AdamGenuinely because the first time I was like, oh, no, so she's.
AdamApart from apart from it does really.
AdamI mean.
AdamIt's like that bit where.
AdamYou know, she she's obviously because there's obviously like there's one's where it's.
AdamUm, like her mom in the hospice.
LeeYeah.
AdamAnd.
AdamSort of and it's it's weird because watching it.
AdamThis time around.
AdamI was like, fuck me, they really signpost that, didn't they?
LeeYeah.
AdamThe very first.
AdamNo.
AdamThat didn't.
AdamDidn't register.
LeeNo.
LeeNo.
AdamAnd that's why.
AdamThat's why I think I enjoyed it more on the second watch.
AdamGenuinely because the first time I was like, oh, no, so she's.
AdamApart from apart from it does really.
AdamI mean.
AdamIt's like that bit where.
AdamYou know, she she's obviously because there's obviously like there's one's where it's.
AdamUm, like her mom in the hospice.
LeeYeah.
AdamAnd.
AdamSort of and it's it's weird because watching it.
AdamThis time around.
AdamI was like, fuck me, they really signpost that, didn't they?
LeeYeah.
AdamThe very first.
AdamNo.
AdamThat didn't.
AdamDidn't register.
LeeNo.
LeeNo.
AdamAnd that's why.
AdamThat's why I think I enjoyed it more on the second watch.
AdamGenuinely because the first time I was like, oh, no, so she's.
AdamApart from apart from it does really.
AdamI mean.
AdamIt's like that bit where.
AdamYou know, she she's obviously because there's obviously like there's one's where it's.
AdamUm, like her mom in the hospice.
LeeYeah.
AdamAnd.
AdamSort of and it's it's weird because watching it.
AdamThis time around.
AdamI was like, fuck me, they really signpost that, didn't they?
LeeYeah.
AdamThe very first.
AdamNo.
AdamThat didn't.
AdamDidn't register.
LeeNo.
LeeNo.
AdamAnd that's why.
AdamThat's why I think I enjoyed it more on the second watch.
AdamGenuinely because the first time I was like, oh, no, so she's.
AdamApart from apart from it does really.
AdamI mean.
AdamIt's like that bit where.
AdamYou know, she she's obviously because there's obviously like there's one's where it's.
AdamUm, like her mom in the hospice.
LeeYeah.
AdamAnd.
AdamSort of and it's it's weird because watching it.
AdamThis time around.
AdamI was like, fuck me, they really signpost that, didn't they?
LeeYeah.
AdamThe very first.
AdamNo.
AdamThat didn't.
AdamDidn't register.
LeeNo.
LeeNo.
AdamAnd that's why.
AdamThat's why I think I enjoyed it more on the second watch.
AdamGenuinely because the first time I was like, oh, no, so she's.
AdamApart from apart from it does really.
AdamI mean.
AdamIt's like that bit where.
AdamYou know, she she's obviously because there's obviously like there's one's where it's.
AdamUm, like her mom in the hospice.
LeeYeah.
AdamAnd.
AdamSort of and it's it's weird because watching it.
AdamThis time around.
AdamI was like, fuck me, they really signpost that, didn't they?
LeeYeah.
AdamThe very first.
AdamNo.
AdamThat didn't.
AdamDidn't register.
LeeNo.
LeeNo.
AdamAnd that's why.
AdamThat's why I think I enjoyed it more on the second watch.
AdamGenuinely because the first time I was like, oh, no, so she's.
AdamApart from apart from it does really.
AdamI mean.
AdamIt's like that bit where.
AdamYou know, she she's obviously because there's obviously like there's one's where it's.
AdamUm, like her mom in the hospice.
LeeYeah.
AdamAnd.
AdamSort of and it's it's weird because watching it.
AdamThis time around.
AdamI was like, fuck me, they really signpost that, didn't they?
LeeYeah.
AdamThe very first.
AdamNo.
AdamThat didn't.
AdamDidn't register.
LeeNo.
LeeNo.
AdamAnd that's why.
AdamThat's why I think I enjoyed it more on the second watch.
AdamGenuinely because the first time I was like, oh, no, so she's.
AdamApart from apart from it does really.
AdamI mean.
AdamIt's like that bit where.
AdamYou know, she she's obviously because there's obviously like there's one's where it's.
AdamUm, like her mom in the hospice.
LeeYeah.
AdamAnd.
AdamSort of and it's it's weird because watching it.
AdamThis time around.
AdamI was like, fuck me, they really signpost that, didn't they?
LeeYeah.
AdamThe very first.
AdamNo.
AdamThat didn't.
AdamDidn't register.
LeeNo.
LeeNo.
AdamAnd that's why.
AdamThat's why I think I enjoyed it more on the second watch.
AdamGenuinely because the first time I was like, oh, no, so she's.
AdamApart from apart from it does really.
AdamI mean.
AdamIt's like that bit where.
AdamYou know, she she's obviously because there's obviously like there's one's where it's.
AdamUm, like her mom in the hospice.
LeeYeah.
AdamAnd.
AdamSort of and it's it's weird because watching it.
AdamThis time around.
AdamI was like, fuck me, they really signpost that, didn't they?
LeeYeah.
AdamThe very first.
AdamNo.
AdamThat didn't.
AdamDidn't register.
LeeNo.
LeeNo.
AdamAnd that's why.
AdamThat's why I think I enjoyed it more on the second watch.
AdamGenuinely because the first time I was like, oh, no, so she's.
AdamApart from apart from it does really.
AdamI mean.
AdamIt's like that bit where.
AdamYou know, she she's obviously because there's obviously like there's one's where it's.
AdamUm, like her mom in the hospice.
LeeYeah.
AdamAnd.
AdamSort of and it's it's weird because watching it.
AdamThis time around.
AdamI was like, fuck me, they really signpost that, didn't they?
LeeYeah.
AdamThe very first.
AdamNo.
AdamThat didn't.
AdamDidn't register.
LeeNo.
LeeNo.
AdamAnd that's why.
AdamThat's why I think I enjoyed it more on the second watch.
AdamGenuinely because the first time I was like, oh, no, so she's.
AdamApart from apart from it does really.
AdamI mean.
AdamIt's like that bit where.
AdamYou know, she she's obviously because there's obviously like there's one's where it's.
AdamUm, like her mom in the hospice.
LeeYeah.
AdamAnd.
AdamSort of and it's it's weird because watching it.
AdamThis time around.
AdamI was like, fuck me, they really signpost that, didn't they?
LeeYeah.
AdamThe very first.
AdamNo.
AdamThat didn't.
AdamDidn't register.
LeeNo.
LeeNo.
AdamAnd that's why.
AdamThat's why I think I enjoyed it more on the second watch.
AdamGenuinely because the first time I was like, oh, no, so she's.
AdamApart from apart from it does really.
AdamI mean.
AdamIt's like that bit where.
AdamYou know, she she's obviously because there's obviously like there's one's where it's.
AdamUm, like her mom in the hospice.
LeeYeah.
AdamAnd.
AdamSort of and it's it's weird because watching it.
AdamThis time around.
AdamI was like, fuck me, they really signpost that, didn't they?
LeeYeah.
AdamThe very first.
AdamNo.
AdamThat didn't.
AdamDidn't register.
LeeNo.
LeeNo.
AdamAnd that's why.
AdamThat's why I think I enjoyed it more on the second watch.
