Broken Veil
00:38:26
About
This episode we’re discussing the bang-up-to-date podcast “Broken Veil” from Joel Morris and Will Maclean. Two intrepid podcasters gathering weird stories from friends, find the tales begin to coalesce in the liminal spaces of Essex…. To tell you more would be to ruin this utterly original and intricately written show. With an excellently selected cast and a definite hint of Nigel Kneale to proceedings, it should suffice to say that if you’ve ever spent too long disappearing down esoteric internet rabbit holes, or whiled away sunny days with your nose stuck in The Fortean Times, this show is for you. SERIOUSLY - THIS SHOW IS A DEFINITE RECOMMENDATION FROM ALL OF US, SO PLEASE LISTEN (OR RE-LISTEN) TO THE 6 EPISODES IN FULL BEFORE YOU JOIN US FOR OUR SPOILER HEAVY CHAT.
Transcript
Show full transcript
LeeGood evening, and welcome to Horror. I'm Lee.
ChrisI'm Chris.
AdamI'm Adam.
LeeAnd we're here this evening for something a bit different. They'll be a lot of questions this evening, I've got a feeling.
ChrisAre we?
LeeOh, well.
LeeSo we are here this evening to cover the podcast, the six-episode arc of the story Broken Veil.
LeeWe will be spoiling this because there's no way not, I think we'll keep it, if we kind of rattle through it in the order in which it plays out and then obviously we can pick it to pieces.
LeeBut if you haven't listened to it, I think it's going to be safe to say we all heartily recommend that you stop now, go and listen to it and come back, because I, I mean it's an absolute masterpiece, I feel, which is why we're here.
AdamI I I will go so far as to say, stop this, go and listen to it, that's it.
AdamYou know, come back to us eventually, but just save what is a very good, you know, just story.
ChrisI'll add a little bit more.
ChrisListen to it twice.
LeeYes, I I've actually listened to the whole thing in its entirety three times.
LeeI did it twice for myself and once for the episode.
ChrisI think you're both going to tell me off for not having listened to it at least twice.
ChrisI have listened to it all once.
AdamNo, I've I've I've done twice, just really, and I mean this is obviously this this is from this year.
Adamit's it's, I mean, it's done well, there's probably a lot of people listening who came to it anyway because apparently it was quite high up on the podcast charts.
Adamand that's pretty much how I heard of it, yeah.
ChrisCan I just do a a little or maybe even a massive rant, right?
ChrisSo I don't, I try not to look up anything about what we watch generally, right, I just want to get the full experience as I see it, as it happens, right, anyway, but on the podcast page, of course, you're straight there and there's the reviews and so, at one point, I thought, well, let's just have a look at what a few people have said, because it's, you know, it's just right this, right there in front of me, I can't, you know, I can't help it, anyway.
Adamof course, yeah.
ChrisSo I scroll down and I'm like, yeah, I agree with that, I agree, yeah, these are good reviews, fine, totally.
ChrisAnd then one person puts, this wasn't real, not for me, so I'm giving it, I think two stars.
ChrisIt's like, that's sort of like saying, going into a restaurant and you order, you know, the best meal that is it's been cooked to perfection.
ChrisBut you just don't like it, well, don't order it.
LeeYeah.
ChrisLike, it doesn't.
LeeOh.
ChrisIt doesn't make any sense, does it? Like it's if you're looking for something that is one hundred percent real, whatever.
ChrisI mean, I'm assuming they think ghosts are real or whatever, so that's what they're after.
AdamI I I wonder, though, because.
LeeIf they if they're listening to this and they hear it, tell me if you find real ghosts.
AdamI I wonder because obviously the.
AdamI'd just seen about it and so it was Joel Morris, who I know.
AdamDidn't know Will McLean particularly.
AdamBut obviously sort of read more about him.
AdamAnd I had hoped to have finished his book, The Apparition Phase, by, by the time we did the episode, but I I've nearly finished it, but I just didn't manage to time management didn't go as well.
LeeIs it amazing?
AdamAnd I mean, so far, so equally as as great.
AdamBut so I knew Joel Morris, and it was like, and then, and it was like they just said, oh, it's a spooky thing or it's like a supernatural thing.
AdamThey didn't didn't specify beyond that, essentially.
AdamThat it was like, oh, if you like something with a bit of, and so literally the first episode.
AdamTo me could have been something along the lines of like, Uncanny, or the Battersea Poltergeist or something like that.
AdamIn as much as it presented enough that it was like, right, so.
AdamThese are two guys, and like Joel Morris does like other podcasts and has I've listened to lots of his other.
Adamshows he does a thing called Comfort Blanket now.
AdamAnd he used to do a thing called, the Rule of Three, which was him and his, sometime writing partner, Jason Haysley.
AdamAnd that was they would get people on, and it was like just.
AdamIt was comedians going on, talking about their favorite comedy thing, like not not them, obviously, but just like, you know.
AdamLike I think Gareth Marenghi Matt Holness was on there and I'm pretty sure his was.
ChrisWait.
ChrisWait, I'm just going to just going to reference that, because I kept thinking of Dark Place when listening to this.
ChrisAnd I don't know if it's just because it had a similar atmospheric sort of the and the narrative.
ChrisBut it's like this is a serious Dark Place.
LeeYes, essentially.
ChrisYou know.
AdamBut, but yeah, so I, but that first thing I listened to it, I was like, oh, so they've just, I took it at face value.
AdamThat it was them saying, oh, we were looking to do something and we found, you know, this weird thing, you know, we heard this weird story from a friend.
AdamAnd the fact they even went down the sort of like, there's an actor friend of ours, Tony, you know, it was like no name to protect the innocent or whatever like that.
AdamIt was obviously absolutely definitely Tony Way when I heard him start talking.
AdamAnd I was, you know, all, I'm there going, it's Danson's dad and everything.
AdamAnd it's, but, you know, so I knew who he was, but equally, that initial story is enough that it could just be a story someone told you.
AdamSo at first, I was very much thinking, oh, is this going to be, you know, them just looking into weird shit that they've heard from friends.
LeeYeah.
AdamWhich is what they're, which is what it's purporting to be, but it is obviously a fiction, and it's, you know.
AdamAnd it was after the second episode where it was someone having where it was Sarah Baron having a much more similar experience.
ChrisYeah.
AdamOr too familiar to that it wasn't like, right, okay, no, this is, this is now, I'm seeing that it's a fiction and everything, and went from there.
LeeYeah.
ChrisYeah.
AdamBut so I can I can kind of get it that I wonder if there were people who were in a way disappointed that it didn't turn out to be real.
AdamOr worse, people who.
ChrisBut but but I don't I get it's difficult for me to be sure that I'm not going to say any spoilers, but.
LeeWe've given people all the.
ChrisIs still the ongoing when, yeah, and especially in the final episode.
ChrisIt does have a bit of a, well, do we think we know what's definitely happened here?
ChrisSo it's not like you're totally it's all a documentary or it's all real or it's not.
ChrisIt's the whole, to me, the whole point is it's for us to think about in a bit of a deeper way.
ChrisAnd I I loved the sci-fi aspect essentially that they introduced.
LeeYeah.
LeeYeah, I I've got to say, I I loved, there was something about this that just made me feel unnerved.
LeeThe entire way through.
ChrisOh, the way through.
LeeAnd I'm sure I said it on our previous episode when we said we were covering this.
LeeI don't mind a radio play or or something like.
LeeBut I I do find them a little bit difficult to engage with sometimes.
LeeWhereas because this was laid out as a podcast, it just sucked me in so much.
AdamYes.
LeeI said, we listened to the, so I say this is the third time I've listened to it, and every time I've listened to it.
LeeI've done it pretty much in a, so the first time we did it in two sittings, because we were driving.
LeeWe listened half on the way to Norfolk and half on the way back.
LeeThen I listened to the whole thing in one sitting, and then this week, yeah, I did the same again and in one day, just did the whole thing in one go.
LeeAnd I just love it, and I will listen to it again, undoubtedly.
LeeBecause even once you know where the story's going, it's just the atmosphere it builds and the.
ChrisYeah.
LeeIt as you say, and that's the thing, it feels so real with the, oh, we're going to jump in the car.
ChrisIt does.
LeeWe're just going to check this thing out, and you know, and people seeming a little bit unsure about the stories they're telling.
ChrisYeah.
LeeIt just felt perfect.
AdamAnd the.
ChrisIt does seem like they put a lot of effort into the dialogue to really add to that.
ChrisIt really did sound like they're just chatting to people.
AdamAnd that's the thing, I wonder how much of.
AdamI do wonder how much of certainly the conversations between, Joel Morris and Will McLean, I do wonder if they were improvised, semi-improvised.
AdamThey're both comedy writers, and they've both got experience in that.
AdamSo, Well, I especially thought that about the second one as well.
ChrisI'm American.
LeeYeah, it was very that.
AdamBritish.
AdamAnd I think also the one of the smartest things is that it only.
AdamThey only sort of build on the outlandishness sort of heavily towards the end, because the rest of it is them under their own steam just looking into these things.
AdamAnd then, and then event start taking over and suddenly it's, you know, you're getting into conspiracy.
AdamThey even mention like Robert Anton Wilson and the Illuminatus trilogy.
LeeYeah.
AdamAnd you get more into that sort of paranoid conspiracy element of it that actually involves them rather than it's just them reporting on it.
LeeYeah.
ChrisYeah.
AdamSo I think they, the pace of it is very well done.
AdamAnd I like the fact that you had, like, you have the story with Paul Putner's story, which is sort of contained within itself.
AdamIt's him who's talking about the stained glass window.
LeeYeah.
AdamAnd it sort of it kind of links to the main thing because it's the same church, but then it's almost like, and here's a little mystery, oh, we solved that.
AdamAnd it sort of.
LeeYeah, that then triggers the later bit where, oh, during editing, we found and it's, yeah.
LeeAnd I.
LeeAnd I love that stuff.
LeeI I thought that when they first when he first was in the church in the first episode, and they did the is anybody out there, does anyone want to contact us?
LeeI was like, that's coming back.
LeeBut because they waited so long.
LeeI had completely forgot because, you know, three hours later or whatever that suddenly comes back.
LeeIn a, oh, look what we've just.
LeeAnd I was like.
LeeOh, I'd forgotten and it it's.
LeeI do love the fact that the the as you say, the the stories from everybody are individual, self-contained stories, but they've all got tendrils that link into one another that then.
ChrisYeah.
Lee
LeeSo yeah, so let's just go ahead and, you know, we go spoilers now.
LeeI I I was concerned how this was going to get wrapped up.
LeeBecause.
Chris
LeeI didn't want it to do that thing where it goes, and this is what happened, so ghosts are definitely real or this, there's definitely something supernatural.
ChrisYeah.
LeeAnd it kind of did but it also didn't, so it it came close enough to it.
LeeBut without saying, oh, look, this podcast has just proved that, you know, there's interdimensional time or whatever.
ChrisYeah.
LeeIt it doesn't, it just hints it or it could be a witch.
ChrisThe way it's the way the way it plays with it is perfect.
ChrisIt is just sort of backwards and forwards, and it's like, well, you know, you've got the evidence, you've got this information that makes you feel this, but yeah, you decide.
AdamIt's it's a, he's a he's a figure who haunts.
AdamCertainly my end of this podcast.
Adambut and I think I'm pretty sure that sort of knowing what I do about the the writers, this will probably come as a compliment.
AdamIt has that real Nigel Kneale thing.
LeeYes.
AdamWhere it's like, oh, somehow, somehow it's science, but also supernatural.
LeeYeah.
AdamAnd the two feed into each other, but neither is actually the one with the upper hand, almost.
AdamYou know, and it's sort of, yeah, you know.
ChrisI mean, that that is essentially science until we understand it, of course.
ChrisIt's like, it absolutely is supernatural until we can make it natural.
LeeIt is.
LeeBut.
ChrisBut and at the moment we don't know.
LeeBut what you've said, Adam, it actually, yeah, hit the nail on the head.
LeeBecause even when you get to the end, even if you take what he says as true that this is a science experiment being done in another dimension, why is it still really, really, really fucking creepy?
LeeBecause it is.
LeeEven if it is just science, it should take all of the creepiness out of it.
LeeBut it doesn't, it somehow makes it more uncomfortable, and I don't know how.
AdamEspecially because you get the impression that there's these interdimensional, the possible thing of interdimensional scientists.
Adambut it's come from, they're using code words of like scratching mass.
AdamWhich, you know, as a term from ancient witchcraft folklore, and things like, you know.
AdamYou know, and there's a lot of just that, you know.
AdamIt can cross it over that one infects the other, almost.
ChrisIs is it also sort of a.
Chrisa blending of how it's kind of mundane, even though if it was this, then it should be, you know, a massive action sort of movie almost.
ChrisBut yet, because it feels so real throughout, that is adds to the, oh, well, it shouldn't be like this if it is, you know.
AdamI I think also the the thing is as well, is that it's it's lovely sort of like that just because I was as I was listening back to it.
AdamI was just like, going through sort of like what gets mentioned, what gets referenced and sort of stuff like that as they're going.
AdamAnd it's pretty much like a fucking case case file of things I'm interested in.
AdamOr things things I have fallen down rabbit holes into and stuff like that.
AdamAnd you know, and it's sort of like, you know, because you've got stuff in there, you've got like Mothman prophecies, who put dollar in the Witch room, the back rooms, you know, the online thing.
AdamAnd the Book House of Leaves, which I remember Dean reading.
AdamAnd obsessing over.
AdamAnd, you know, the the I Ching comes into it, and, you know, Kelvedon Hatch, and nuclear paranoia.
AdamPhiladelphia experiment, the Fortean Times, the Mandela effect, and,
Adamlike, like you say, E V P, and then you get into, you know, you know, conspiracy, and, you know, government secret government projects, and stuff like that.
AdamAnd it's all just like, yeah, this is a real just mixing bowl of that.
AdamAnd, and the good thing is, is that because of the presentation of it as a podcast, they get to they don't have to be, well, they kind of use it the way that a podcast would use it.
AdamYou know, a a real podcast would use it.
AdamWhere it's like, oh, well, you know, it's a bit like that and here's two minutes on.
LeeWhat that was.
AdamWhat that was, you know, Cobra missed or whatever the subject was.
AdamSo it's like, you get a little potted history, you get all these sorts of things.
AdamAnd, you know.
AdamAll of them are fucking rabbit holes you can disappear down, and, you know, I mean, the one thing I would say is, is I think,
Adamour our our dear departed friend Westie would have fucking loved this.
AdamBecause again.
LeeSo is he, isn't it?
AdamHim, you know, he would have really, really enjoyed it.
Adamand also just because of the fact that it's, they're all, you know, like I I knew Tony Way.
AdamSarah Baron, I've seen on Live Live at the Apollo, because she's a stand-up comedian, and I've seen her on Frankie Boyle's New World Order.
AdamAnd then you've got Al Campbell in there, AKA Barry Shipley's, which is, which is a tragedy for a man who's directed that much good telly.
AdamThat he will always be Barry Shipley's, thanks to Charlie Brooker.
LeeYeah.
LeeIt's exactly the same, with Tony Power and stuff.
AdamYeah.
LeeYou know, he's done so much, he's done big Hollywood films and all the rest of it.
LeeEvery time I see him, I still just go, Danson's dad.
AdamYeah.
Lee1998, because it was such a brilliant character.
AdamExactly.
LeeSo I mean, it is a good, you know, I mean, it is a compliment in all why.
AdamOh, absolutely.
AdamAnd like Paul Putner, who's like, if if you're someone who knows who Kevin Eldon is, then Paul Putner's your Kevin Eldon.
LeeYeah.
AdamYou know.
AdamIt's like Kevin Eldon to a lot of people is, oh, it's that guy who's in loads of comedy stuff.
AdamBut if you know that that's Kevin Eldon, then Paul Putner's, it's that guy who's in loads of stuff.
LeeYeah.
AdamYou know.
AdamI mean, both both of whom turned up when we did the Cornetto trilogy as well.
AdamSo on the six feet deeper, there's more about those, you know.
AdamI sort of went into more detail about those guys and stuff.
AdamBut.
Adamthe interesting thing I found those when they started doing the railway stuff.
AdamIs they said, oh, we've had someone on the forum, and they called him Dr. Beeching.
AdamAnd that was because Dr. Beeching ran British railways.
AdamBriefly and did like a time and motion study and closed loads of the track down.
AdamHe like sort of, I think they closed down like almost like a third of the entire network.
AdamBecause it was like, oh, well, they're little rural, far away places, this is not doing any good.
AdamAnd there is the sitcom, Oh, Doctor Beeching, which was used as a cover for one of our We Have Been Watching's.
AdamSo we do have that connection there.
AdamBut, but yeah, but then the mysterious man who turns up at the end for the last episode.
AdamHe's credited as Dr. Beeching.
Adam
AdamSo, and I don't know if that's like meant to be that he was the one on the forum who was yanking the chain or whether they've done that entirely out of that, or who knows.
AdamBut yeah.
AdamIt was just a weird little sort of touch in there that sort of, for something that's this.
ChrisLeaves you guessing.
AdamWell, it's for something that's this well mapped out and thought out, you know, it has sort of.
LeeNow you're saying about rabbit holes.
LeeSo I actually ended up down a bit of a rabbit hole myself today with this and I'll tell you why.
LeeI was basically just I I was.
LeeEvery time I when I listened to it for this podcast, I went walking.
LeeSo I was out walking the whole time.
LeeSo I didn't take any notes.
LeeSo I wanted to write down the names of things like Noctuex.
LeeAnd I wanted the name of the witch who they covered.
Leeso I basically went and Googled.
LeeAnd I ended up on a website.
LeeNow, Adam, I don't know if you've discovered this.
LeeSame website too.
LeeI'm not going to name it.
Leebut I it's basically it's a guy who's got a like a horror.
LeeAnd UFO type website.
Leeand he reviews stuff.
LeeAnd he reviewed this, and he seemed to be doing it as it aired.
AdamYes, I think, I think I have been on the same website, yeah.
LeeYes, so he started out believing as you said, that he thought it was a real paranormal web, and then you can feel the shift in it as it changes.
Leeas it goes.
LeeBut yeah, he was talking about trying to find the places that they would.
LeeAnd I was like, I I I'd assumed they were completely fabricated and they weren't real places.
LeeBut he was saying, oh, yeah, I've been trying to work out, I've had me map out and I've been looking at decommissioned air bases and all this kind of stuff.
LeeBut the one thing that did jump out to me is there was a page, it was the first one I found, which was the page's titled.
LeeWho are Noctuex?
LeeNow, the very last thing on the page is, the final thing you need to know about Noctuex, the organization owns a podcast production company named Loud Burst, whose slogan is just what you want to hear.
AdamYeah.
LeeYeah, it is heard at the start of Broken Veil episodes.
LeeLoud Burst.
Leeis a Noctuex company which sponsors Broken Veil, and I was like, it clearly isn't.
LeeBut I did go back and listen and Loud Burst is on the beginning and end of every, and when you Google them, they don't exist.
AdamYeah.
LeeSo what the fuck is that?
AdamAnd.
AdamAnd I because because of that page, I went back and listened.
AdamIt's only the very end, the very last episode, because rather cleverly, this is this is just a a podcast.
AdamIt's a cheese and pickle podcast, which is Joel Morris's podcast company.
Adamand so they do have a couple of adverts beforehand, you know, they have sponsors.
AdamAnd so, yeah, I was exactly the same, I just thought, oh Loud Burst is another advert.
LeeYeah.
AdamYou know.
AdamAnd it's brilliant because it's so plain and basic as a lot of those kind of corporate adverts are on, you know, when it's like.
AdamWell, if you're looking to do a website, you need Squarespace.
LeeYes.
AdamYou know, it's those sort of really sort of, you know, passionless little sort of things where it's like, you know, and yeah, and so I was like, so I knew Loud Burst because I was like, oh, yeah, they they're just one of the adverts in it.
AdamSo even down to that is so clever.
AdamAnd like I say, it's only that very it's the very end after the thing, it does say that Loud Burst is a Notuex company.
LeeSee, now I didn't.
LeeI only listened to it on the beginning and end of the first episode.
LeeAnd they don't mention that in.
LeeThey just say.
AdamNo.
LeeYeah, so I so I didn't realize, yeah, because I was like, where'd you got this Noctuex from?
AdamI'm skipping them as adverts.
LeeBut yeah, if it's.
LeeOh, that's, I like that.
LeeIt's just those little Easter eggs that, you know.
AdamIt's a it's a lot of there's a lot of lovely little sort of messing with the format and everything else like that.
AdamAnd I can only feel that it comes from people who, like I say, John Morris, I mean, he used to run.
AdamThere was a company called, Great Big Owl, and which was a podcast production company that he did.
AdamAnd they did,
AdamThey did like, that's where Rule of Three was was on that with that production company.
AdamBut they also did, Brian and Roger with Dan Skinner and Harry Peacock, which if you've not heard is fucking hilarious.
AdamIt's just a brilliant idea for a.
AdamIt's basically a very trusting man and a very unscrupulous man.
AdamWho have somehow become friends over their love of the film Avatar, and it's just them leaving messages for each other, and shit goes mad.
LeeThat sounds excellent.
LeeYou'll have to.
AdamSeriously, give it a listen, so Brian and Roger is a definite recommend.
Adamthey also used to host Smersh Pod and a Weezing Growing Sound, which is John Rains, Bond and Doctor Who podcasts.
AdamAnd all rather mysterious, which is John Rain, Helena, Moman, David Reed.
Adamthey also do a thing called Box of Delights, which is hosted by Andrea Ryecart, who is Joel Morris's wife.
AdamAnd she's a T V journalist, but yeah.
Adam
AdamAnd then apparently, because I was like, oh, a lot of these podcasts that I listened to, they don't seem to be great big owl anymore.
AdamAnd apparently, they went, they basically, I think the company had to close during lockdown.
AdamBecause they couldn't get out of their rental agreement with their landlord.
LeeOh, they lost all their money.
AdamSo basically, they had, well, they had an office and a and a recording studio, which they couldn't use for two years that they were renting out.
AdamAnd the landlord would give them no fucking respite or anything else like that.
AdamSo I think they had to fold it, and then, and then suddenly there's Cheese and Pickle.
AdamAnd Cheese and Pickle still do Brian and Roger and Box of Delights, they also do the Colindale Gazette and, Comfort Blanket.
AdamWhich again is Joel Morris talking to people about just their literally what is their their comfort.
AdamThing that they like listen to or watch or whatever like that.
Adam
AdamSo it comes, I think that comes from, all because it's that, is just a, you know, that's all.
Adamthe like so many podcasts that I listen to and stuff like that.
AdamSo it's really having that knowledge of how podcasts operate, sound.
AdamEven down to how the advertising works or the bumpers at the start and things like that.
AdamAnd then just being able to sneak these little bits in, so every bit of it, it it's not quite Ghostlight.
AdamGhostlight.
AdamGhost Watch.
AdamBut it's in that same sort of area of like, you know, it's a a, it's a faux documentary, essentially.
AdamIt's, yeah.
ChrisYeah.
AdamAnd, yeah, just fantastically done.
LeeIt is.
LeeAnd again.
LeeI think it's because, as you say, they've got that real world experience of having done it genuinely that they know how to to make it sound perfect and just just tweak it and sneak those things past you.
AdamYeah, I I did feel I did feel slightly got out when it was the the one of the opening lines was.
AdamAnd like most men of a certain age, we decided to make a podcast.
LeeYeah.
LeeI hear that.
AdamThat's the that's the other thing as well, there's so many great, I mean like the fact that cuz.
AdamLike I say, I was listening, so I listened to this, I think I became aware of it when the third episode was up.
AdamSo I listened to the first three, then had to wait a week for four.
AdamAnd five and for six.
AdamYeah, so as you can imagine, I was quite excited.
AdamIt was, you know, for the for the first time in a very long time.
AdamOf something where I'm like, it's coming out weekly, and I am literally chomping at the fucking bit, going, it's Tuesday, it's going to be up, you know, it's going to be.
AdamAnd, yeah, they,
AdamSo.
AdamBut there's so many, what was the, what was the other, like in Tony, in Tony's story, where it was, he says there's two the two women are looking at him.
AdamAnd it was like, you know, how you'd look at a fire.
LeeYeah.
AdamOr, you know, they weren't really looking at me, they were sort of regarding me like you'd look at a fire, or a or a quiet T V in a pub.
AdamAnd I was like, that is I it was perfect, but also it was like, I know exactly the look, and exactly how unnerving it would be to be looked at in that way.
ChrisThey had it was the perfect, they described everything just so well that you could visualize exactly what they were.
ChrisYou know.
LeeAbsolutely, and I had exactly the same thing with Al's story when he said, I saw someone and they looked familiar.
LeeBut it wasn't until I saw them again on T V that I managed to put two and two together.
LeeAnd that's the kind of thing I'd do, I'd see someone and go, I think I know them.
LeeAnd you think, oh, I probably know them from the pub, or back in the clubbing days, or whatever.
LeeYeah.
LeeAnd then all of a sudden.
LeeThey pop up on something, and you go, oh, shit, now it's that person off the T V, I didn't.
AdamAnd that's why it seems like they've put so much effort into it and yet it feels effortless.
AdamIs that.
AdamIt's the beautiful thing of it is that they get the.
AdamRight level of odd every time.
AdamEven down to that, just a weird thing because, you know, obsessive Black Adder fan since I was a child.
AdamSo I know Gabriel Glaister, and I would know her name.
AdamYou know what I mean, but it's such a sort of weird thing to pluck out of nowhere.
AdamThat it's like, I mean, and it's obvious that they know her, or, you know, a friend of a friend or whatever, so they've got.
AdamBut it's just the right sort of level of weird that it was like, oh, and then I realized it was Bob from Black Adder.
ChrisBob, yeah.
AdamAnd, you know, you sort of and yeah, it's just.
ChrisBut but that just only brings up the image, doesn't it, of everything you know about.
ChrisThey just keep transporting.
ChrisYou to these different experiences and memories.
LeeYeah.
LeeAnd as you say, it's that none of the until you get right to the end, nothing that happens seems so outlandish or it does sound like the kind of thing a friend to tell you, I did a really weird thing that happened.
LeeYeah, and it's just.
LeeIt doesn't feel spectacular, it's not like, oh, I've read about that in the newspaper.
LeeOr that'd be a famous story picked up by loads of, it's just a weird evening where something didn't feel right.
LeeAnd.
AdamYeah.
LeeYeah, they just get that balance right enough, and I love the fact that she wouldn't say the words as well.
LeeWhen they were speaking to Sarah.
LeeShe said, can I.
LeeWrite them down?
AdamAnd and again.
AdamJust the brilliance of that because like I say, I was.
AdamThat that's obviously the second episode, so I've gotten I've got in I've got in a work early.
AdamFirst thing I've done is I've Googled Scaffeld Hill, then I've Googled scratching mask.
AdamNow, obviously, if you Google scratching mask now, you just get lots of people talking about broken veil, so magnificent.
AdamBut then it's just even down to that, that they'd found something that a sounds abso fucking lootly perfect as an old.
AdamSort of sixteenth century term, or civil war era term.
AdamBut also isn't actually a term.
AdamAnd so you can't Google it.
AdamSo it's just again.
AdamJust the the sort of the level of detail, the level of work that's gone into it and stuff.
AdamIt's just just brilliant.
AdamAnd the fact that now scratching mass is all over the Google.
AdamYeah.
AdamThat's because of this show, literally.
AdamIt's like, well, well done, you've just you you've Slenderman'd it, you you know, you now have created this thing.
AdamAnd eventually, probably ten, twenty years down the line, or probably even sooner, someone's going to look it up.
AdamOr find the term scratching mass and to it and think that it's a real thing.
ChrisThis is where it originated from.
LeeIt's a real thing.
LeeYeah, yeah.
AdamYeah.
AdamStory.
AdamI mean, even down to that.
AdamAgnes Clamp, such a fucking perfect like.
LeeYeah.
AdamIt feels Pendle, doesn't it?
AdamIt's got like, it's like Alice Nutter.
AdamIt's like those sort of, just it's just the right name.
LeeYeah, and even her her pseudonym as well.
LeeWhen they said, oh, they found her in another town two years later, and her name was Ursula Godwood.
LeeAnd it again.
LeeIt is.
LeeIt's it is.
LeeIt just if you drop that into all the people from Chelmsford.
LeeWho were in which that would not stand out at all.
LeeYou would.
AdamNo.
AdamThey've just, you know.
AdamIt's that their knowledge and love of the subject.
AdamBut also managing to create this entirely original mythology.
AdamYou know, I I it's genuinely brilliant.
AdamAnd they, you know.
AdamThere's a part of me that there's I'm.
AdamI'm really half and half because there's a part of me that wants fucking more of this, but there's also a part of me that's like, is it perfect?
AdamAnd do I want it do I want to know more.
AdamBecause I don't think I do if it's not going to be.
LeeNo.
LeeI think that's it, I think it is literally perfect, there's nothing about it that I didn't like.
LeeIt is, I, yeah.
LeeI can't think of a single thing that could have been done better.
LeeSo, yeah.
AdamNo.
ChrisI wouldn't put it past them to be able to do something similar.
Chrisbut differently enough that it's as good.
AdamI mean, if they did something a different thing.
AdamI think that might even be the the way to go with it.
AdamBut.
AdamI mean, even like you're saying, Lee, the thing is with it, is you're worried, you think is this going to stick a landing or whatever like that.
AdamBecause it's quite, you know, it's a difficult thing to sort of try and draw together.
AdamAnd they managed to end it, but leave it very open-ended, but not in a way that you feel cheated.
AdamAnd so they kind of give it a conclusion, but the conclusion is, what the fuck?
LeeYeah.
AdamOr maybe.
LeeYeah.
LeeIt is the perfect ending, I say, I I was the same, I literally got halfway through the last episode.
LeeAnd I was like, all of these stories on their own are brilliant.
LeeI cannot work out how they're going to tie all together, it either can't be done or it's going to be so rubbish.
ChrisI did not expect them to do it the way they did it.
LeeAnd then it was perfect.
LeeNo.
ChrisAfter the five, yeah.
LeeIt's.
LeeYeah, it's it's I I couldn't be more happy with it.
Lee
LeeSo yeah, it it's great.
Leeyeah, and I'm really looking forward to you finishing the Apparition Phase.
LeeBecause that's the I found that very much the same.
Lee
LeeLoved it all the way through, but I was like, how is he going to end this?
LeeThis.
LeeAnd he does.
LeeBut the other thing I had that like you were saying as well, it was as if someone had written down all your favorite things.
LeeThat was what the beginning of the Apparition Phase, when he was talking about Ghost Watch and the Fortean Times and everything he was talking about.
LeeI was like, I had that.
LeeYep, I read that.
LeeYep, I've got that.
ChrisSomething tells me he knows his audience.
AdamOh, he is.
ChrisHe's audience as well.
AdamHe knows his.
AdamOnions, he knows his all of his onions.
AdamBecause actually, I I'll tell you what as well, do you know the bit that impressed me the most, though, and this is fucking sad.
AdamThere's a bit in it where they there's a specific date in the book.
AdamAnd it's like.
AdamAnd I thought I was trying to give myself a sense of time.
AdamNot to say that the book doesn't evoke it perfectly, because it evokes the time period and everything.
AdamBut I looked it up as I was like, right, well, that's a Saturday, I'll look up what Doctor Who episode was on, and it was like part four, I think of Planet of the Spiders, Jon Pertwee's last story.
AdamAnd then literally later about a chapter, half a chapter later, or whatever like that.
Adamhe gets home and Planet of the Spiders is on.
AdamAnd I was like.
AdamYeah, well done.
AdamNo, absolutely perfect.
LeeI say, it was just it was one of those books that it it was, you know, it was a friend a friend of a friend had written it.
LeeAnd it was a horror book, so Jennifer picked me up a copy and said, oh, you know, a friend of Giles wrote this.
LeeIt's a horror book.
LeeShe said, it's pretty good.
LeeShe give it a go.
Leeyeah, so I went in with low expectations.
LeeAnd was absolutely I just couldn't put it down.
LeeI think I spent about four days just on the sofa just absolutely stuck to it because it was so good.
Lee
AdamYeah.
LeeAnd and again like this every chapter.
LeeJust just kept you going onto the next one, and it kept.
LeeYou couldn't work out how it was all going to tie up, you know, from the the opening story at the beginning.
LeeAgain, I don't want to spoil it for anyone.
LeeBecause you need to find a copy and read it.
Lee
LeeBut yeah, how the beginning story from his childhood starts, and then how it changes, you know.
LeeHow is all this going to tie back up, but again, just absolutely nailed it.
LeeStuck the landing and, yeah.
LeeLoved it.
AdamBut.
AdamYeah.
AdamI mean, obviously, if people have listened this far, we've we've we've even spoiled stuff or fucking confused you.
LeeYeah.
ChrisYeah.
ChrisI'm sure you've mentioned it several times, but they've got the Bandcamp original soundtrack.
AdamI've got the soundtrack.
AdamI I I ordered myself a copy.
ChrisDid you did you manage to get a C D?
ChrisOh, sold out now.
AdamApparently.
AdamNo, I've managed to get the C D.
ChrisWell done.
Adambasically, I if they released this as a three D C D set, I'd buy this.
LeeYeah.
AdamYeah.
LeeYeah.
AdamThis would be, if this was a film, I'd have pre-ordered the Blu-ray.
LeeYeah.
AdamBut because it's a podcast, it's just there.
ChrisYeah.
AdamAnd.
ChrisYeah.
AdamYou know.
AdamIt's like.
AdamIt's there, and it's free.
AdamAnd it's like, that's the other thing, I feel almost like, I feel I've robbed you.
LeeYeah, exactly.
LeeThat's it.
ChrisThat's it, that's what, I'm going to buy their album.
ChrisIt's only six pounds just to, you know.
ChrisThey deserve that.
AdamAnd seriously, that's what I've been listening to while I've been reading the Apparition Phase, so it's really.
LeeYeah.
LeeThat's.
LeeFantastic.
LeeYes, so everybody.
LeeIf you haven't listened to it already, we've we've left it vague enough that it we haven't spoiled it.
LeeTrust us, it's still worth listening to.
Lee
LeeGo and check out the Apparition Phase by Will McLean, it's a fantastic book.
LeeI'm sure we'll discuss it again when Adam's finished.
Leeand we will be back in a fortnight's time to cover the Tomb of Ligia.
LeeOn our fourth out in, I think we agreed of Roger Corman, Vincent Price movies.
AdamYep.
LeeExcellent.
LeeSo, thanks ever so much for listening.
LeeEverybody, stay creepy.
LeeAnd good night.
ChrisGood night.
AdamGood night.
