Broken Veil

0:23 Lee Good evening, and welcome to Horror. I'm Lee.

0:27 Chris I'm Chris.

0:28 Adam I'm Adam.

0:29 Lee And we're here this evening for something a bit different. They'll be a lot of questions this evening, I've got a feeling.

0:32 Chris Are we?

0:33 Lee Oh, well.

0:38 Lee So we are here this evening to cover the podcast, the six-episode arc of the story Broken Veil.

0:46 Lee We will be spoiling this because there's no way not, I think we'll keep it, if we kind of rattle through it in the order in which it plays out and then obviously we can pick it to pieces.

0:57 Lee But if you haven't listened to it, I think it's going to be safe to say we all heartily recommend that you stop now, go and listen to it and come back, because I, I mean it's an absolute masterpiece, I feel, which is why we're here.

1:52 Adam I I I will go so far as to say, stop this, go and listen to it, that's it.

1:58 Adam You know, come back to us eventually, but just save what is a very good, you know, just story.

2:08 Chris I'll add a little bit more.

2:09 Chris Listen to it twice.

2:11 Lee Yes, I I've actually listened to the whole thing in its entirety three times.

2:15 Lee I did it twice for myself and once for the episode.

2:19 Chris I think you're both going to tell me off for not having listened to it at least twice.

2:23 Chris I have listened to it all once.

2:26 Adam No, I've I've I've done twice, just really, and I mean this is obviously this this is from this year.

2:34 Adam it's it's, I mean, it's done well, there's probably a lot of people listening who came to it anyway because apparently it was quite high up on the podcast charts.

2:42 Adam and that's pretty much how I heard of it, yeah.

2:47 Chris Can I just do a a little or maybe even a massive rant, right?

2:52 Chris So I don't, I try not to look up anything about what we watch generally, right, I just want to get the full experience as I see it, as it happens, right, anyway, but on the podcast page, of course, you're straight there and there's the reviews and so, at one point, I thought, well, let's just have a look at what a few people have said, because it's, you know, it's just right this, right there in front of me, I can't, you know, I can't help it, anyway.

3:19 Adam of course, yeah.

3:20 Chris So I scroll down and I'm like, yeah, I agree with that, I agree, yeah, these are good reviews, fine, totally.

3:25 Chris And then one person puts, this wasn't real, not for me, so I'm giving it, I think two stars.

3:32 Chris It's like, that's sort of like saying, going into a restaurant and you order, you know, the best meal that is it's been cooked to perfection.

3:38 Chris But you just don't like it, well, don't order it.

3:43 Lee Yeah.

3:44 Chris Like, it doesn't.

3:45 Lee Oh.

3:45 Chris It doesn't make any sense, does it? Like it's if you're looking for something that is one hundred percent real, whatever.

3:49 Chris I mean, I'm assuming they think ghosts are real or whatever, so that's what they're after.

3:54 Adam I I I wonder, though, because.

3:56 Lee If they if they're listening to this and they hear it, tell me if you find real ghosts.

3:59 Adam I I wonder because obviously the.

4:02 Adam I'd just seen about it and so it was Joel Morris, who I know.

4:08 Adam Didn't know Will McLean particularly.

4:11 Adam But obviously sort of read more about him.

4:14 Adam And I had hoped to have finished his book, The Apparition Phase, by, by the time we did the episode, but I I've nearly finished it, but I just didn't manage to time management didn't go as well.

4:24 Lee Is it amazing?

4:27 Adam And I mean, so far, so equally as as great.

4:31 Adam But so I knew Joel Morris, and it was like, and then, and it was like they just said, oh, it's a spooky thing or it's like a supernatural thing.

4:41 Adam They didn't didn't specify beyond that, essentially.

4:47 Adam That it was like, oh, if you like something with a bit of, and so literally the first episode.

4:54 Adam To me could have been something along the lines of like, Uncanny, or the Battersea Poltergeist or something like that.

5:02 Adam In as much as it presented enough that it was like, right, so.

5:08 Adam These are two guys, and like Joel Morris does like other podcasts and has I've listened to lots of his other.

5:16 Adam shows he does a thing called Comfort Blanket now.

5:20 Adam And he used to do a thing called, the Rule of Three, which was him and his, sometime writing partner, Jason Haysley.

5:29 Adam And that was they would get people on, and it was like just.

5:34 Adam It was comedians going on, talking about their favorite comedy thing, like not not them, obviously, but just like, you know.

5:41 Adam Like I think Gareth Marenghi Matt Holness was on there and I'm pretty sure his was.

5:47 Chris Wait.

5:48 Chris Wait, I'm just going to just going to reference that, because I kept thinking of Dark Place when listening to this.

5:53 Chris And I don't know if it's just because it had a similar atmospheric sort of the and the narrative.

5:58 Chris But it's like this is a serious Dark Place.

6:00 Lee Yes, essentially.

6:01 Chris You know.

6:03 Adam But, but yeah, so I, but that first thing I listened to it, I was like, oh, so they've just, I took it at face value.

6:12 Adam That it was them saying, oh, we were looking to do something and we found, you know, this weird thing, you know, we heard this weird story from a friend.

6:19 Adam And the fact they even went down the sort of like, there's an actor friend of ours, Tony, you know, it was like no name to protect the innocent or whatever like that.

6:28 Adam It was obviously absolutely definitely Tony Way when I heard him start talking.

6:33 Adam And I was, you know, all, I'm there going, it's Danson's dad and everything.

6:37 Adam And it's, but, you know, so I knew who he was, but equally, that initial story is enough that it could just be a story someone told you.

6:50 Adam So at first, I was very much thinking, oh, is this going to be, you know, them just looking into weird shit that they've heard from friends.

7:00 Lee Yeah.

7:01 Adam Which is what they're, which is what it's purporting to be, but it is obviously a fiction, and it's, you know.

7:07 Adam And it was after the second episode where it was someone having where it was Sarah Baron having a much more similar experience.

7:12 Chris Yeah.

7:15 Adam Or too familiar to that it wasn't like, right, okay, no, this is, this is now, I'm seeing that it's a fiction and everything, and went from there.

7:24 Lee Yeah.

7:25 Chris Yeah.

7:26 Adam But so I can I can kind of get it that I wonder if there were people who were in a way disappointed that it didn't turn out to be real.

7:33 Adam Or worse, people who.

7:36 Chris But but but I don't I get it's difficult for me to be sure that I'm not going to say any spoilers, but.

7:41 Lee We've given people all the.

7:43 Chris Is still the ongoing when, yeah, and especially in the final episode.

7:48 Chris It does have a bit of a, well, do we think we know what's definitely happened here?

7:57 Chris So it's not like you're totally it's all a documentary or it's all real or it's not.

8:02 Chris It's the whole, to me, the whole point is it's for us to think about in a bit of a deeper way.

8:10 Chris And I I loved the sci-fi aspect essentially that they introduced.

8:16 Lee Yeah.

8:17 Lee Yeah, I I've got to say, I I loved, there was something about this that just made me feel unnerved.

8:23 Lee The entire way through.

8:26 Chris Oh, the way through.

8:27 Lee And I'm sure I said it on our previous episode when we said we were covering this.

8:29 Lee I don't mind a radio play or or something like.

8:35 Lee But I I do find them a little bit difficult to engage with sometimes.

8:40 Lee Whereas because this was laid out as a podcast, it just sucked me in so much.

8:44 Adam Yes.

8:45 Lee I said, we listened to the, so I say this is the third time I've listened to it, and every time I've listened to it.

8:51 Lee I've done it pretty much in a, so the first time we did it in two sittings, because we were driving.

8:55 Lee We listened half on the way to Norfolk and half on the way back.

8:59 Lee Then I listened to the whole thing in one sitting, and then this week, yeah, I did the same again and in one day, just did the whole thing in one go.

9:06 Lee And I just love it, and I will listen to it again, undoubtedly.

9:11 Lee Because even once you know where the story's going, it's just the atmosphere it builds and the.

9:19 Chris Yeah.

9:20 Lee It as you say, and that's the thing, it feels so real with the, oh, we're going to jump in the car.

9:24 Chris It does.

9:25 Lee We're just going to check this thing out, and you know, and people seeming a little bit unsure about the stories they're telling.

9:32 Chris Yeah.

9:32 Lee It just felt perfect.

9:35 Adam And the.

9:35 Chris It does seem like they put a lot of effort into the dialogue to really add to that.

9:40 Chris It really did sound like they're just chatting to people.

9:43 Adam And that's the thing, I wonder how much of.

9:46 Adam I do wonder how much of certainly the conversations between, Joel Morris and Will McLean, I do wonder if they were improvised, semi-improvised.

9:55 Adam They're both comedy writers, and they've both got experience in that.

10:00 Adam So, Well, I especially thought that about the second one as well.

10:03 Chris I'm American.

10:06 Lee Yeah, it was very that.

10:08 Adam British.

10:10 Adam And I think also the one of the smartest things is that it only.

10:17 Adam They only sort of build on the outlandishness sort of heavily towards the end, because the rest of it is them under their own steam just looking into these things.

10:32 Adam And then, and then event start taking over and suddenly it's, you know, you're getting into conspiracy.

10:39 Adam They even mention like Robert Anton Wilson and the Illuminatus trilogy.

10:45 Lee Yeah.

10:46 Adam And you get more into that sort of paranoid conspiracy element of it that actually involves them rather than it's just them reporting on it.

10:56 Lee Yeah.

10:57 Chris Yeah.

10:58 Adam So I think they, the pace of it is very well done.

11:03 Adam And I like the fact that you had, like, you have the story with Paul Putner's story, which is sort of contained within itself.

11:13 Adam It's him who's talking about the stained glass window.

11:17 Lee Yeah.

11:18 Adam And it sort of it kind of links to the main thing because it's the same church, but then it's almost like, and here's a little mystery, oh, we solved that.

11:26 Adam And it sort of.

11:27 Lee Yeah, that then triggers the later bit where, oh, during editing, we found and it's, yeah.

11:33 Lee And I.

11:33 Lee And I love that stuff.

11:34 Lee I I thought that when they first when he first was in the church in the first episode, and they did the is anybody out there, does anyone want to contact us?

11:42 Lee I was like, that's coming back.

11:44 Lee But because they waited so long.

11:46 Lee I had completely forgot because, you know, three hours later or whatever that suddenly comes back.

11:51 Lee In a, oh, look what we've just.

11:53 Lee And I was like.

11:54 Lee Oh, I'd forgotten and it it's.

11:58 Lee I do love the fact that the the as you say, the the stories from everybody are individual, self-contained stories, but they've all got tendrils that link into one another that then.

12:08 Chris Yeah.

12:10 Lee

12:13 Lee So yeah, so let's just go ahead and, you know, we go spoilers now.

12:17 Lee I I I was concerned how this was going to get wrapped up.

12:21 Lee Because.

12:23 Chris

12:24 Lee I didn't want it to do that thing where it goes, and this is what happened, so ghosts are definitely real or this, there's definitely something supernatural.

12:34 Chris Yeah.

12:35 Lee And it kind of did but it also didn't, so it it came close enough to it.

12:42 Lee But without saying, oh, look, this podcast has just proved that, you know, there's interdimensional time or whatever.

12:49 Chris Yeah.

12:50 Lee It it doesn't, it just hints it or it could be a witch.

12:54 Chris The way it's the way the way it plays with it is perfect.

12:57 Chris It is just sort of backwards and forwards, and it's like, well, you know, you've got the evidence, you've got this information that makes you feel this, but yeah, you decide.

13:06 Adam It's it's a, he's a he's a figure who haunts.

13:09 Adam Certainly my end of this podcast.

13:13 Adam but and I think I'm pretty sure that sort of knowing what I do about the the writers, this will probably come as a compliment.

13:25 Adam It has that real Nigel Kneale thing.

13:29 Lee Yes.

13:30 Adam Where it's like, oh, somehow, somehow it's science, but also supernatural.

13:36 Lee Yeah.

13:37 Adam And the two feed into each other, but neither is actually the one with the upper hand, almost.

13:41 Adam You know, and it's sort of, yeah, you know.

13:44 Chris I mean, that that is essentially science until we understand it, of course.

13:48 Chris It's like, it absolutely is supernatural until we can make it natural.

13:54 Lee It is.

13:54 Lee But.

13:55 Chris But and at the moment we don't know.

13:56 Lee But what you've said, Adam, it actually, yeah, hit the nail on the head.

14:03 Lee Because even when you get to the end, even if you take what he says as true that this is a science experiment being done in another dimension, why is it still really, really, really fucking creepy?

14:11 Lee Because it is.

14:11 Lee Even if it is just science, it should take all of the creepiness out of it.

14:15 Lee But it doesn't, it somehow makes it more uncomfortable, and I don't know how.

14:18 Adam Especially because you get the impression that there's these interdimensional, the possible thing of interdimensional scientists.

14:24 Adam but it's come from, they're using code words of like scratching mass.

14:30 Adam Which, you know, as a term from ancient witchcraft folklore, and things like, you know.

14:39 Adam You know, and there's a lot of just that, you know.

14:43 Adam It can cross it over that one infects the other, almost.

14:51 Chris Is is it also sort of a.

14:52 Chris a blending of how it's kind of mundane, even though if it was this, then it should be, you know, a massive action sort of movie almost.

15:01 Chris But yet, because it feels so real throughout, that is adds to the, oh, well, it shouldn't be like this if it is, you know.

15:08 Adam I I think also the the thing is as well, is that it's it's lovely sort of like that just because I was as I was listening back to it.

15:19 Adam I was just like, going through sort of like what gets mentioned, what gets referenced and sort of stuff like that as they're going.

15:26 Adam And it's pretty much like a fucking case case file of things I'm interested in.

15:33 Adam Or things things I have fallen down rabbit holes into and stuff like that.

15:39 Adam And you know, and it's sort of like, you know, because you've got stuff in there, you've got like Mothman prophecies, who put dollar in the Witch room, the back rooms, you know, the online thing.

15:48 Adam And the Book House of Leaves, which I remember Dean reading.

15:51 Adam And obsessing over.

15:54 Adam And, you know, the the I Ching comes into it, and, you know, Kelvedon Hatch, and nuclear paranoia.

16:02 Adam Philadelphia experiment, the Fortean Times, the Mandela effect, and,

16:07 Adam like, like you say, E V P, and then you get into, you know, you know, conspiracy, and, you know, government secret government projects, and stuff like that.

16:21 Adam And it's all just like, yeah, this is a real just mixing bowl of that.

16:25 Adam And, and the good thing is, is that because of the presentation of it as a podcast, they get to they don't have to be, well, they kind of use it the way that a podcast would use it.

16:37 Adam You know, a a real podcast would use it.

16:41 Adam Where it's like, oh, well, you know, it's a bit like that and here's two minutes on.

16:46 Lee What that was.

16:46 Adam What that was, you know, Cobra missed or whatever the subject was.

16:52 Adam So it's like, you get a little potted history, you get all these sorts of things.

16:56 Adam And, you know.

16:57 Adam All of them are fucking rabbit holes you can disappear down, and, you know, I mean, the one thing I would say is, is I think,

17:05 Adam our our our dear departed friend Westie would have fucking loved this.

17:11 Adam Because again.

17:12 Lee So is he, isn't it?

17:14 Adam Him, you know, he would have really, really enjoyed it.

17:18 Adam and also just because of the fact that it's, they're all, you know, like I I knew Tony Way.

17:25 Adam Sarah Baron, I've seen on Live Live at the Apollo, because she's a stand-up comedian, and I've seen her on Frankie Boyle's New World Order.

17:33 Adam And then you've got Al Campbell in there, AKA Barry Shipley's, which is, which is a tragedy for a man who's directed that much good telly.

17:39 Adam That he will always be Barry Shipley's, thanks to Charlie Brooker.

17:45 Lee Yeah.

17:45 Lee It's exactly the same, with Tony Power and stuff.

17:48 Adam Yeah.

17:49 Lee You know, he's done so much, he's done big Hollywood films and all the rest of it.

17:53 Lee Every time I see him, I still just go, Danson's dad.

17:57 Adam Yeah.

17:57 Lee 1998, because it was such a brilliant character.

17:58 Adam Exactly.

18:01 Lee So I mean, it is a good, you know, I mean, it is a compliment in all why.

18:07 Adam Oh, absolutely.

18:07 Adam And like Paul Putner, who's like, if if you're someone who knows who Kevin Eldon is, then Paul Putner's your Kevin Eldon.

18:15 Lee Yeah.

18:16 Adam You know.

18:17 Adam It's like Kevin Eldon to a lot of people is, oh, it's that guy who's in loads of comedy stuff.

18:21 Adam But if you know that that's Kevin Eldon, then Paul Putner's, it's that guy who's in loads of stuff.

18:25 Lee Yeah.

18:25 Adam You know.

18:27 Adam I mean, both both of whom turned up when we did the Cornetto trilogy as well.

18:31 Adam So on the six feet deeper, there's more about those, you know.

18:36 Adam I sort of went into more detail about those guys and stuff.

18:38 Adam But.

18:39 Adam the interesting thing I found those when they started doing the railway stuff.

18:43 Adam Is they said, oh, we've had someone on the forum, and they called him Dr. Beeching.

18:48 Adam And that was because Dr. Beeching ran British railways.

18:53 Adam Briefly and did like a time and motion study and closed loads of the track down.

19:00 Adam He like sort of, I think they closed down like almost like a third of the entire network.

19:04 Adam Because it was like, oh, well, they're little rural, far away places, this is not doing any good.

19:08 Adam And there is the sitcom, Oh, Doctor Beeching, which was used as a cover for one of our We Have Been Watching's.

19:16 Adam So we do have that connection there.

19:17 Adam But, but yeah, but then the mysterious man who turns up at the end for the last episode.

19:24 Adam He's credited as Dr. Beeching.

19:27 Adam

19:28 Adam So, and I don't know if that's like meant to be that he was the one on the forum who was yanking the chain or whether they've done that entirely out of that, or who knows.

19:36 Adam But yeah.

19:37 Adam It was just a weird little sort of touch in there that sort of, for something that's this.

19:44 Chris Leaves you guessing.

19:44 Adam Well, it's for something that's this well mapped out and thought out, you know, it has sort of.

19:51 Lee Now you're saying about rabbit holes.

19:53 Lee So I actually ended up down a bit of a rabbit hole myself today with this and I'll tell you why.

20:01 Lee I was basically just I I was.

20:03 Lee Every time I when I listened to it for this podcast, I went walking.

20:10 Lee So I was out walking the whole time.

20:11 Lee So I didn't take any notes.

20:14 Lee So I wanted to write down the names of things like Noctuex.

20:20 Lee And I wanted the name of the witch who they covered.

20:24 Lee so I basically went and Googled.

20:27 Lee And I ended up on a website.

20:29 Lee Now, Adam, I don't know if you've discovered this.

20:32 Lee Same website too.

20:32 Lee I'm not going to name it.

20:35 Lee but I it's basically it's a guy who's got a like a horror.

20:39 Lee And UFO type website.

20:41 Lee and he reviews stuff.

20:43 Lee And he reviewed this, and he seemed to be doing it as it aired.

20:46 Adam Yes, I think, I think I have been on the same website, yeah.

20:48 Lee Yes, so he started out believing as you said, that he thought it was a real paranormal web, and then you can feel the shift in it as it changes.

20:56 Lee as it goes.

20:57 Lee But yeah, he was talking about trying to find the places that they would.

21:01 Lee And I was like, I I I'd assumed they were completely fabricated and they weren't real places.

21:05 Lee But he was saying, oh, yeah, I've been trying to work out, I've had me map out and I've been looking at decommissioned air bases and all this kind of stuff.

21:14 Lee But the one thing that did jump out to me is there was a page, it was the first one I found, which was the page's titled.

21:25 Lee Who are Noctuex?

21:27 Lee Now, the very last thing on the page is, the final thing you need to know about Noctuex, the organization owns a podcast production company named Loud Burst, whose slogan is just what you want to hear.

21:41 Adam Yeah.

21:42 Lee Yeah, it is heard at the start of Broken Veil episodes.

21:46 Lee Loud Burst.

21:48 Lee is a Noctuex company which sponsors Broken Veil, and I was like, it clearly isn't.

21:51 Lee But I did go back and listen and Loud Burst is on the beginning and end of every, and when you Google them, they don't exist.

21:59 Adam Yeah.

21:59 Lee So what the fuck is that?

22:00 Adam And.

22:01 Adam And I because because of that page, I went back and listened.

22:06 Adam It's only the very end, the very last episode, because rather cleverly, this is this is just a a podcast.

22:19 Adam It's a cheese and pickle podcast, which is Joel Morris's podcast company.

22:26 Adam and so they do have a couple of adverts beforehand, you know, they have sponsors.

22:34 Adam And so, yeah, I was exactly the same, I just thought, oh Loud Burst is another advert.

22:39 Lee Yeah.

22:40 Adam You know.

22:41 Adam And it's brilliant because it's so plain and basic as a lot of those kind of corporate adverts are on, you know, when it's like.

22:53 Adam Well, if you're looking to do a website, you need Squarespace.

22:58 Lee Yes.

22:58 Adam You know, it's those sort of really sort of, you know, passionless little sort of things where it's like, you know, and yeah, and so I was like, so I knew Loud Burst because I was like, oh, yeah, they they're just one of the adverts in it.

23:12 Adam So even down to that is so clever.

23:14 Adam And like I say, it's only that very it's the very end after the thing, it does say that Loud Burst is a Notuex company.

23:22 Lee See, now I didn't.

23:23 Lee I only listened to it on the beginning and end of the first episode.

23:25 Lee And they don't mention that in.

23:27 Lee They just say.

23:28 Adam No.

23:29 Lee Yeah, so I so I didn't realize, yeah, because I was like, where'd you got this Noctuex from?

23:33 Adam I'm skipping them as adverts.

23:34 Lee But yeah, if it's.

23:36 Lee Oh, that's, I like that.

23:38 Lee It's just those little Easter eggs that, you know.

23:43 Adam It's a it's a lot of there's a lot of lovely little sort of messing with the format and everything else like that.

23:51 Adam And I can only feel that it comes from people who, like I say, John Morris, I mean, he used to run.

23:59 Adam There was a company called, Great Big Owl, and which was a podcast production company that he did.

24:05 Adam And they did,

24:08 Adam They did like, that's where Rule of Three was was on that with that production company.

24:15 Adam But they also did, Brian and Roger with Dan Skinner and Harry Peacock, which if you've not heard is fucking hilarious.

24:22 Adam It's just a brilliant idea for a.

24:23 Adam It's basically a very trusting man and a very unscrupulous man.

24:29 Adam Who have somehow become friends over their love of the film Avatar, and it's just them leaving messages for each other, and shit goes mad.

24:35 Lee That sounds excellent.

24:36 Lee You'll have to.

24:37 Adam Seriously, give it a listen, so Brian and Roger is a definite recommend.

24:40 Adam they also used to host Smersh Pod and a Weezing Growing Sound, which is John Rains, Bond and Doctor Who podcasts.

24:49 Adam And all rather mysterious, which is John Rain, Helena, Moman, David Reed.

24:53 Adam they also do a thing called Box of Delights, which is hosted by Andrea Ryecart, who is Joel Morris's wife.

25:00 Adam And she's a T V journalist, but yeah.

25:03 Adam

25:04 Adam And then apparently, because I was like, oh, a lot of these podcasts that I listened to, they don't seem to be great big owl anymore.

25:12 Adam And apparently, they went, they basically, I think the company had to close during lockdown.

25:18 Adam Because they couldn't get out of their rental agreement with their landlord.

25:22 Lee Oh, they lost all their money.

25:23 Adam So basically, they had, well, they had an office and a and a recording studio, which they couldn't use for two years that they were renting out.

25:28 Adam And the landlord would give them no fucking respite or anything else like that.

25:33 Adam So I think they had to fold it, and then, and then suddenly there's Cheese and Pickle.

25:36 Adam And Cheese and Pickle still do Brian and Roger and Box of Delights, they also do the Colindale Gazette and, Comfort Blanket.

25:44 Adam Which again is Joel Morris talking to people about just their literally what is their their comfort.

25:48 Adam Thing that they like listen to or watch or whatever like that.

25:54 Adam

25:56 Adam So it comes, I think that comes from, all because it's that, is just a, you know, that's all.

26:03 Adam the like so many podcasts that I listen to and stuff like that.

26:06 Adam So it's really having that knowledge of how podcasts operate, sound.

26:13 Adam Even down to how the advertising works or the bumpers at the start and things like that.

26:18 Adam And then just being able to sneak these little bits in, so every bit of it, it it's not quite Ghostlight.

26:25 Adam Ghostlight.

26:26 Adam Ghost Watch.

26:28 Adam But it's in that same sort of area of like, you know, it's a a, it's a faux documentary, essentially.

26:35 Adam It's, yeah.

26:36 Chris Yeah.

26:37 Adam And, yeah, just fantastically done.

26:39 Lee It is.

26:40 Lee And again.

26:41 Lee I think it's because, as you say, they've got that real world experience of having done it genuinely that they know how to to make it sound perfect and just just tweak it and sneak those things past you.

26:50 Adam Yeah, I I did feel I did feel slightly got out when it was the the one of the opening lines was.

26:55 Adam And like most men of a certain age, we decided to make a podcast.

26:59 Lee Yeah.

27:00 Lee I hear that.

27:01 Adam That's the that's the other thing as well, there's so many great, I mean like the fact that cuz.

27:07 Adam Like I say, I was listening, so I listened to this, I think I became aware of it when the third episode was up.

27:14 Adam So I listened to the first three, then had to wait a week for four.

27:18 Adam And five and for six.

27:20 Adam Yeah, so as you can imagine, I was quite excited.

27:25 Adam It was, you know, for the for the first time in a very long time.

27:28 Adam Of something where I'm like, it's coming out weekly, and I am literally chomping at the fucking bit, going, it's Tuesday, it's going to be up, you know, it's going to be.

27:36 Adam And, yeah, they,

27:39 Adam So.

27:42 Adam But there's so many, what was the, what was the other, like in Tony, in Tony's story, where it was, he says there's two the two women are looking at him.

27:53 Adam And it was like, you know, how you'd look at a fire.

27:56 Lee Yeah.

27:57 Adam Or, you know, they weren't really looking at me, they were sort of regarding me like you'd look at a fire, or a or a quiet T V in a pub.

28:04 Adam And I was like, that is I it was perfect, but also it was like, I know exactly the look, and exactly how unnerving it would be to be looked at in that way.

28:13 Chris They had it was the perfect, they described everything just so well that you could visualize exactly what they were.

28:19 Chris You know.

28:20 Lee Absolutely, and I had exactly the same thing with Al's story when he said, I saw someone and they looked familiar.

28:25 Lee But it wasn't until I saw them again on T V that I managed to put two and two together.

28:29 Lee And that's the kind of thing I'd do, I'd see someone and go, I think I know them.

28:34 Lee And you think, oh, I probably know them from the pub, or back in the clubbing days, or whatever.

28:39 Lee Yeah.

28:40 Lee And then all of a sudden.

28:40 Lee They pop up on something, and you go, oh, shit, now it's that person off the T V, I didn't.

28:46 Adam And that's why it seems like they've put so much effort into it and yet it feels effortless.

28:49 Adam Is that.

28:50 Adam It's the beautiful thing of it is that they get the.

28:52 Adam Right level of odd every time.

28:55 Adam Even down to that, just a weird thing because, you know, obsessive Black Adder fan since I was a child.

29:03 Adam So I know Gabriel Glaister, and I would know her name.

29:06 Adam You know what I mean, but it's such a sort of weird thing to pluck out of nowhere.

29:10 Adam That it's like, I mean, and it's obvious that they know her, or, you know, a friend of a friend or whatever, so they've got.

29:16 Adam But it's just the right sort of level of weird that it was like, oh, and then I realized it was Bob from Black Adder.

29:22 Chris Bob, yeah.

29:24 Adam And, you know, you sort of and yeah, it's just.

29:29 Chris But but that just only brings up the image, doesn't it, of everything you know about.

29:34 Chris They just keep transporting.

29:35 Chris You to these different experiences and memories.

29:38 Lee Yeah.

29:38 Lee And as you say, it's that none of the until you get right to the end, nothing that happens seems so outlandish or it does sound like the kind of thing a friend to tell you, I did a really weird thing that happened.

29:49 Lee Yeah, and it's just.

29:51 Lee It doesn't feel spectacular, it's not like, oh, I've read about that in the newspaper.

29:54 Lee Or that'd be a famous story picked up by loads of, it's just a weird evening where something didn't feel right.

29:58 Lee And.

29:58 Adam Yeah.

30:00 Lee Yeah, they just get that balance right enough, and I love the fact that she wouldn't say the words as well.

30:04 Lee When they were speaking to Sarah.

30:06 Lee She said, can I.

30:07 Lee Write them down?

30:08 Adam And and again.

30:09 Adam Just the brilliance of that because like I say, I was.

30:12 Adam That that's obviously the second episode, so I've gotten I've got in I've got in a work early.

30:21 Adam First thing I've done is I've Googled Scaffeld Hill, then I've Googled scratching mask.

30:26 Adam Now, obviously, if you Google scratching mask now, you just get lots of people talking about broken veil, so magnificent.

30:32 Adam But then it's just even down to that, that they'd found something that a sounds abso fucking lootly perfect as an old.

30:41 Adam Sort of sixteenth century term, or civil war era term.

30:48 Adam But also isn't actually a term.

30:51 Adam And so you can't Google it.

30:53 Adam So it's just again.

30:56 Adam Just the the sort of the level of detail, the level of work that's gone into it and stuff.

31:00 Adam It's just just brilliant.

31:03 Adam And the fact that now scratching mass is all over the Google.

31:07 Adam Yeah.

31:07 Adam That's because of this show, literally.

31:10 Adam It's like, well, well done, you've just you you've Slenderman'd it, you you know, you now have created this thing.

31:16 Adam And eventually, probably ten, twenty years down the line, or probably even sooner, someone's going to look it up.

31:23 Adam Or find the term scratching mass and to it and think that it's a real thing.

31:28 Chris This is where it originated from.

31:29 Lee It's a real thing.

31:31 Lee Yeah, yeah.

31:31 Adam Yeah.

31:31 Adam Story.

31:32 Adam I mean, even down to that.

31:33 Adam Agnes Clamp, such a fucking perfect like.

31:35 Lee Yeah.

31:37 Adam It feels Pendle, doesn't it?

31:41 Adam It's got like, it's like Alice Nutter.

31:42 Adam It's like those sort of, just it's just the right name.

31:46 Lee Yeah, and even her her pseudonym as well.

31:48 Lee When they said, oh, they found her in another town two years later, and her name was Ursula Godwood.

31:53 Lee And it again.

31:54 Lee It is.

31:55 Lee It's it is.

31:56 Lee It just if you drop that into all the people from Chelmsford.

31:58 Lee Who were in which that would not stand out at all.

32:00 Lee You would.

32:01 Adam No.

32:01 Adam They've just, you know.

32:02 Adam It's that their knowledge and love of the subject.

32:07 Adam But also managing to create this entirely original mythology.

32:12 Adam You know, I I it's genuinely brilliant.

32:16 Adam And they, you know.

32:18 Adam There's a part of me that there's I'm.

32:20 Adam I'm really half and half because there's a part of me that wants fucking more of this, but there's also a part of me that's like, is it perfect?

32:28 Adam And do I want it do I want to know more.

32:31 Adam Because I don't think I do if it's not going to be.

32:33 Lee No.

32:34 Lee I think that's it, I think it is literally perfect, there's nothing about it that I didn't like.

32:37 Lee It is, I, yeah.

32:38 Lee I can't think of a single thing that could have been done better.

32:41 Lee So, yeah.

32:41 Adam No.

32:42 Chris I wouldn't put it past them to be able to do something similar.

32:44 Chris but differently enough that it's as good.

32:46 Adam I mean, if they did something a different thing.

32:48 Adam I think that might even be the the way to go with it.

32:50 Adam But.

32:50 Adam I mean, even like you're saying, Lee, the thing is with it, is you're worried, you think is this going to stick a landing or whatever like that.

32:55 Adam Because it's quite, you know, it's a difficult thing to sort of try and draw together.

32:59 Adam And they managed to end it, but leave it very open-ended, but not in a way that you feel cheated.

33:11 Adam And so they kind of give it a conclusion, but the conclusion is, what the fuck?

33:16 Lee Yeah.

33:17 Adam Or maybe.

33:17 Lee Yeah.

33:18 Lee It is the perfect ending, I say, I I was the same, I literally got halfway through the last episode.

33:22 Lee And I was like, all of these stories on their own are brilliant.

33:26 Lee I cannot work out how they're going to tie all together, it either can't be done or it's going to be so rubbish.

33:31 Chris I did not expect them to do it the way they did it.

33:34 Lee And then it was perfect.

33:35 Lee No.

33:36 Chris After the five, yeah.

33:38 Lee It's.

33:39 Lee Yeah, it's it's I I couldn't be more happy with it.

33:42 Lee

33:43 Lee So yeah, it it's great.

33:46 Lee yeah, and I'm really looking forward to you finishing the Apparition Phase.

33:51 Lee Because that's the I found that very much the same.

33:56 Lee

33:56 Lee Loved it all the way through, but I was like, how is he going to end this?

33:59 Lee This.

34:00 Lee And he does.

34:00 Lee But the other thing I had that like you were saying as well, it was as if someone had written down all your favorite things.

34:05 Lee That was what the beginning of the Apparition Phase, when he was talking about Ghost Watch and the Fortean Times and everything he was talking about.

34:10 Lee I was like, I had that.

34:11 Lee Yep, I read that.

34:12 Lee Yep, I've got that.

34:12 Chris Something tells me he knows his audience.

34:14 Adam Oh, he is.

34:16 Chris He's audience as well.

34:17 Adam He knows his.

34:18 Adam Onions, he knows his all of his onions.

34:20 Adam Because actually, I I'll tell you what as well, do you know the bit that impressed me the most, though, and this is fucking sad.

34:29 Adam There's a bit in it where they there's a specific date in the book.

34:34 Adam And it's like.

34:35 Adam And I thought I was trying to give myself a sense of time.

34:43 Adam Not to say that the book doesn't evoke it perfectly, because it evokes the time period and everything.

34:47 Adam But I looked it up as I was like, right, well, that's a Saturday, I'll look up what Doctor Who episode was on, and it was like part four, I think of Planet of the Spiders, Jon Pertwee's last story.

34:56 Adam And then literally later about a chapter, half a chapter later, or whatever like that.

35:02 Adam he gets home and Planet of the Spiders is on.

35:06 Adam And I was like.

35:06 Adam Yeah, well done.

35:08 Adam No, absolutely perfect.

35:10 Lee I say, it was just it was one of those books that it it was, you know, it was a friend a friend of a friend had written it.

35:19 Lee And it was a horror book, so Jennifer picked me up a copy and said, oh, you know, a friend of Giles wrote this.

35:25 Lee It's a horror book.

35:26 Lee She said, it's pretty good.

35:27 Lee She give it a go.

35:28 Lee yeah, so I went in with low expectations.

35:32 Lee And was absolutely I just couldn't put it down.

35:34 Lee I think I spent about four days just on the sofa just absolutely stuck to it because it was so good.

35:38 Lee

35:40 Adam Yeah.

35:40 Lee And and again like this every chapter.

35:45 Lee Just just kept you going onto the next one, and it kept.

35:49 Lee You couldn't work out how it was all going to tie up, you know, from the the opening story at the beginning.

35:54 Lee Again, I don't want to spoil it for anyone.

35:55 Lee Because you need to find a copy and read it.

35:57 Lee

35:58 Lee But yeah, how the beginning story from his childhood starts, and then how it changes, you know.

36:03 Lee How is all this going to tie back up, but again, just absolutely nailed it.

36:05 Lee Stuck the landing and, yeah.

36:08 Lee Loved it.

36:11 Adam But.

36:12 Adam Yeah.

36:12 Adam I mean, obviously, if people have listened this far, we've we've we've even spoiled stuff or fucking confused you.

36:18 Lee Yeah.

36:19 Chris Yeah.

36:20 Chris I'm sure you've mentioned it several times, but they've got the Bandcamp original soundtrack.

36:26 Adam I've got the soundtrack.

36:27 Adam I I I ordered myself a copy.

36:29 Chris Did you did you manage to get a C D?

36:31 Chris Oh, sold out now.

36:31 Adam Apparently.

36:32 Adam No, I've managed to get the C D.

36:33 Chris Well done.

36:35 Adam basically, I if they released this as a three D C D set, I'd buy this.

36:41 Lee Yeah.

36:42 Adam Yeah.

36:42 Lee Yeah.

36:43 Adam This would be, if this was a film, I'd have pre-ordered the Blu-ray.

36:46 Lee Yeah.

36:46 Adam But because it's a podcast, it's just there.

36:48 Chris Yeah.

36:49 Adam And.

36:50 Chris Yeah.

36:50 Adam You know.

36:51 Adam It's like.

36:52 Adam It's there, and it's free.

36:53 Adam And it's like, that's the other thing, I feel almost like, I feel I've robbed you.

36:56 Lee Yeah, exactly.

36:57 Lee That's it.

36:58 Chris That's it, that's what, I'm going to buy their album.

37:00 Chris It's only six pounds just to, you know.

37:02 Chris They deserve that.

37:03 Adam And seriously, that's what I've been listening to while I've been reading the Apparition Phase, so it's really.

37:08 Lee Yeah.

37:09 Lee That's.

37:10 Lee Fantastic.

37:12 Lee Yes, so everybody.

37:13 Lee If you haven't listened to it already, we've we've left it vague enough that it we haven't spoiled it.

37:18 Lee Trust us, it's still worth listening to.

37:20 Lee

37:21 Lee Go and check out the Apparition Phase by Will McLean, it's a fantastic book.

37:26 Lee I'm sure we'll discuss it again when Adam's finished.

37:29 Lee and we will be back in a fortnight's time to cover the Tomb of Ligia.

37:33 Lee On our fourth out in, I think we agreed of Roger Corman, Vincent Price movies.

37:39 Adam Yep.

37:39 Lee Excellent.

37:40 Lee So, thanks ever so much for listening.

37:42 Lee Everybody, stay creepy.

37:43 Lee And good night.

37:44 Chris Good night.

37:45 Adam Good night.