The Witches
00:47:12
About
It’s Hammer Time, and we’re looking at some of the more under-appreciated output from The Studio That Dripped Blood”; first up it’s 1966’s “The Witches” (aka “The Devil’s Own”). A film in which a headmaster cosplaying as a priest is seen as a harmless quirk; the local butcher puts paid to the adage “laugh and the whole world laughs with you.”; and your choice of drinks is gin, gin or more gin. A box office failure; “The Witches” was not considered a worthy part of Hammer’s horror output, languishing for decades as a mere footnote to both the story of Hammer Films, and the career of star Joan Fontaine. Thankfully, that reputation has shifted with time, as later generations have rediscovered it. The story is a blueprint for folk horror, whilst predating those movies that would come to define the genre and Quatermass creator Nigel Kneale’s subtlety witty script means this feels a lot more fresh and modern than some of the more melodramatic gothic horrors the studio produced, with a set of strong female characters driving the narrative. Whilst some may find the heavily choreographed climatic ceremony comical, if the movie has drawn you in, these sequences can actually be eerily mesmerising. Watch (or re-watch) to avoid spoilers and join us.
Transcript
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LeeGood evening and welcome to Hora. I'm Lee.
ChrisI'm Chris.
AdamAnd I'm Adam, so you don't have to.
LeeOh!
LeeAnd we are here as promised for a oh an absolute gem of a movie in my personal opinion.
LeeWe are here for 1966's Hammer presentation of The Witches.
LeeThere will be spoilers and swearing, just to warn you.
LeeBut yes, other than that, business as usual.
LeeChris, as this is I'm assuming your first viewing, what did you make of it?
ChrisIt would be a tad shocking if it wasn't, I think. But yeah, yeah, no it was. well, let's get it right out the way, not what I was expecting from Hammer. I'm sure I'm not the only person to have said that.
Adam
ChrisAnd another very charming, very English, really enjoyable, especially on a relaxing Easter Sunday.
ChrisYeah, like where is it? So, it kind of feels I would have thought ahead of its time.
Chrisyou know, you've got very good female lead, kind of two, two female leads really, ultimately.
AdamOh, absolutely, yeah.
ChrisSo, witchcraft in an English countryside, gaslighting and mental health, gender and power, and outside versus community, and a 7,000 year-old sacrificial knife from ancient Mexico.
ChrisYou know, what more do you need in a film?
AdamOh, mate, yeah.
AdamI think you hit the nail on the head there though, Chris.
AdamThat the this is not I think it's getting a bit of a foothold now.
ChrisOh okay.
AdamBecause people are watching Hammer and actually can now see these, you know, I've had the chance to see everything.
ChrisI suppose it's the the other films you think of from Hammer, there's a it's much more overt.
ChrisThis this has some very good, subtle undercurrent of, you know, something dark sinister going on. But yeah, it's not until quite a bit later in the film that you fully appreciate exactly what it is.
AdamYeah.
AdamIt's not it's not an out and out horror, it's certainly not one of the gothic classics, it's not a monster film.
ChrisYeah.
Adamand yeah, so it's.
ChrisThere are monsters in it though. Once again, humans.
LeeYes.
AdamIs it mankind or man cruel? Who knows?
AdamBut yeah, there's I think that the it sort of doesn't have it didn't have much of a reputation.
AdamIt was sort of like seen as like at the time I don't think it sort of did particularly well because I think the Hammer name by then was.
AdamOh yeah, you come here and you get for it's day quite extreme, you know,
Leegore and
ChrisYeah.
AdamPossibly a glimpse of a lady's bazoom.
LeeYeah.
AdamYou know, that sort of thing. And yeah.
AdamThe Witches is is a very different sort of horror film.
ChrisYeah, definitely more in the psychological.
LeeYeah, slow build.
ChrisYeah.
LeeYeah, yeah.
ChrisI can imagine, is this is this an earlier sort of folk horror? Is it?
AdamIt really is. It's one of the sort of earlier it's kind of one of the earlier examples of.
AdamLike absolute traditional sort of folk horror.
AdamAnd sets up a lot of the usual folk horror, you know, it follows the usual folk horror trope of.
AdamOutsider comes to a village and slowly uncovers the sort of conspiratorial nature or the evil that lurks there.
ChrisI too, what it reminded me of Hot Fuzz.
LeeYeah.
ChrisIt might be because we've seen it recently, but yeah.
AdamI saw one person online refer to it as Hot Fuzz with interpretive dance.
LeeOh.
AdamAnd yeah, it's now it is it is a quite sort of.
AdamBecause because the script basically, you like you said, it's unusual that it's a female led film.
AdamBut Joan Fontaine, who is the main character in this.
ChrisYeah.
ChrisI don't think I've seen her in anything else.
AdamBut I assume.
ChrisShe has done some other films.
AdamShe was a massive, massive like name in in her time.
AdamI mean she was like she was headlining films throughout the '40s and '50s and '60s.
AdamAnd basically what had happened was.
AdamI mean, she is the only she's the only actor to ever win an Oscar for being in an Alfred Hitchcock film.
ChrisAll right.
AdamShe won it for Suspicion.
AdamAnd the I think the year before she'd been nominated.
ChrisIs that one we should watch?
AdamShe'd been nominated for Rebecca, which is another Hitchcock film.
ChrisOkay.
AdamSo and so she worked with, you know, she's worked with loads of great directors and.
Chris
Adamyou know, she was in you know, she she'd been in loads and loads of films.
ChrisWell, were they were those two horror films?
ChrisI know Hitchcock did a range.
AdamNo, they're more thrillers.
ChrisYeah.
AdamBut then I would argue that this is kind of more of a thriller.
ChrisYeah.
AdamTechnically, I don't think anything necessarily supernatural happens.
ChrisThe voodoo elements seemed like you might get more of it, but they were they didn't turn into anything, but you know, when you see that at the start, you're thinking, okay, well, this this could lead on to something.
AdamYeah, it's sort of it's because it's it's a bit of a false start because you naturally assume that they're going to do, you know, it's Hammer, so you that's probably another thing.
AdamPeople are like, oh Hammer are doing a voodoo film, you know, or whatever like that.
AdamAnd and thankfully for like modern sensibilities, that isn't actually the case.
AdamIt is like it's a proper.
ChrisIt's a very subtle.
AdamYeah, it's a proper it's a proper sort of English folk horror is that sort of thing of here's the picturesque village and here's what's rotten underneath it.
ChrisSure.
AdamAnd yeah, and but I mean like.
AdamSo Joan Fontaine basically she was not getting any roles in Hollywood and literally it was because she was older.
AdamAnd when I say older, she was 48 when you.
ChrisYeah.
ChrisWell, no, she's not obviously when you said that.
LeeYeah.
AdamYeah.
AdamIt's ridiculous is that horrific thing that is still ongoing but certainly was a feature of its time.
AdamThat she was not getting any roles because now she was an older woman, that was it.
AdamSo she actually bought the rights to a book called The Devil's Und.
Chris
AdamWhich this is based on.
AdamAnd so she came to Hammer and said I've got the rights to this film, do you want to make it, but I'm starring in it.
ChrisThat's cool.
AdamAnd he's one of the executive producers.
Chris
AdamSo and and it's weird because Hammer have this sort of Hammer, because what's the one like.
AdamBette Davis is in a Hammer film, isn't she? She's in is it The Nanny or?
LeeYes, yes.
AdamAnd and there's the other one something like the what is it the reunion, the family reunion or something like that.
AdamI can't remember.
LeeI don't know.
AdamBut yeah, she's so Hammer had do have this sort of thing of they would get in American stars who were like on the down down turn of their career sort of thing.
AdamSo it wasn't unusual, in fact, like their first films like The Quatermass.
AdamThe first horror films they did like The Quatermass films, that was from a time when they were getting.
AdamAgain, they would get Hollywood stars in for a bit of name to sell it to America.
Chris
AdamSo like Quatermass has got a guy called Brian Don Levy is Professor Quatermass in those films and he's not great, you see.
AdamHe plays it like a sort of American PI.
LeeYeah.
AdamYeah.
AdamSo it's a bit weird.
AdamBut again, yeah, so Hammer have Hammer had quite an association with taking like American stars in because they added a bit of name, but it weren't necessarily it wasn't necessarily because those people were at their peak in their career at that point.
LeeI mean, this is just a marriage made in heaven.
LeeBecause it's I I love folk horror as everyone knows, yeah, and I think this story is absolutely brilliant.
LeeI've got to be honest, I think after The Devil Rides Out, I think this is my second favourite Hammer movie out of all of them.
AdamWow.
LeeBut I I've made a point with it because The Devil Rides Out I have seen to absolute death.
AdamYeah.
LeeI still watch it regularly, but I I could just shut my eyes and watch it from beginning to end with no effort.
LeeWhereas this one, because I discovered it later, so when I got the ultimate Hammer box set and it was in there, it was one of the ones I hadn't actually seen.
LeeSo when I watched it, I absolutely loved it.
LeeI said right, I am not going to watch this to death.
LeeI'm going to say it's one of those I I've probably watched three or four times, but every time I do, it's absolutely amazing.
LeeSo I've made a point of not ruining it for myself.
LeeI just find it such an enjoyable watch.
AdamI think you you've what what you've got there is you've got the classic case of, let's face it, Devil Rides Out.
AdamYou're quite happy in pints.
AdamBut this this is some this is a slightly a slightly rarer drink that requires savouring.
LeeYeah.
Leeyeah, and it's great, I've got to be an honourable mention as well, it's I'm assuming that it's been taken from this.
Leeit is also the name of one of my favourite black metal tracks of all time, off of Akercocke's album, The Goat of Mendes.
Leeskin for dancing in.
LeeSo yeah, so I think so.
LeeI I knew that album long before, and I'm sure I watched this for the first time and I went, oh.
AdamSorry, what album is it, mate?
LeeThe Goat of Mendes by Akercocke.
AdamOh, right, no, what's the what's the track?
LeeOh, a skin for dancing in.
Adamyes, yeah.
AdamWhich is that's that I mean, that's perfect, that little rhyme.
AdamAnd actually, that's one thing that I think is there's a the thing that's great about this is that you get what is a fairly.
AdamLike I say, it's almost like a thriller, so it feels a bit sort of genteel.
AdamAnd then there's little snatches of it where because it's Hammer, they're like I mean, I think this might have been one of those ones where Hammer actually asked the board to give them an X.
AdamAfter they'd like said, oh, it's an A.
LeeYeah.
AdamLike in terms because they were like, we sell on the basis we get ex.
ChrisOh.
AdamYeah.
AdamYou know, so they sort of but the the bit where.
AdamDoucet's brought out of the like found drowned.
LeeYeah.
AdamAnd they just walk him through the village.
AdamIt's actually really quite fucking shocking.
LeeYeah, it is.
AdamAnd like, you know, he is it's a horrible cops, you know, it's really quite vivid.
AdamAnd a lot stronger than you would have in say a film like the same film but not done by Hammer.
LeeYeah.
AdamYou know.
AdamIt would be it would be there, it would still be a shock moment and you but you wouldn't have it quite as gruesome as they do it there.
AdamYou know.
AdamAnd it's sort of there.
AdamThere are a couple of moments and the cat.
AdamThe cat in the doll.
ChrisYeah.
LeeYeah, yeah.
AdamIt's so freakishly weird that you don't know what's going on.
ChrisYeah.
AdamThe first time I watched it.
ChrisI was like, is it a human in there?
ChrisWhat, like what?
LeeYou've got no sense of scale.
ChrisHow is it making that weird noise?
LeeAnd it just.
LeeThat's why you're like there's something wrong there.
AdamIt's really it's really sort of face level sort of like makes you feel a bit queasy sort of like, what actually is that?
AdamAnd yeah, I mean it's and and a great, you know, a fantastic cat, Vesper.
ChrisEspecially because they do that as you're hitting the point where it's like they're going to be skinning a girl.
ChrisI'm I'm pretty sure you know about that at that point.
ChrisYeah, and it's like, okay, this is getting dark.
Lee
LeeYou're saying about that about, you know, what what you'd know and what you don't know so far.
LeeThat's the only downfall of this, I would say, and it isn't the film, it's my C is my DVD of it.
LeeSo on the Hammer ultimate Hammer collection, obviously the big twist, I know we said we there were going to be there were going to be spoilers.
LeeSo Stephanie Backs, who is the woman who appears to be helping out the whole way through, turns out to be the head witch.
ChrisYes.
LeeBut in the ultimate collection, the title card for the special features, play movie, but is her in the like at the in the headdress with the hand of glory and everything on it.
LeeAnd just gives the game away, really.
ChrisIt does a little bit.
LeeYeah.
AdamThat's that's like putting a certain person on the front of Dune.
ChrisThey should have that in like secret secret.
ChrisArea.
LeeAgain, it's one of those.
LeeI don't know if I would have noticed.
ChrisYeah.
LeeAt the time, but when I watch it now, yeah, you see it immediately go, oh yes, if I'd forgotten that twist, you've just 100% reminded me of what's about to happen.
AdamYeah.
AdamYeah, so K Walsh, who's Stephanie.
Adamis, yeah, both of them have like her and Joan Fontaine, I think.
AdamFucking amazing because they.
ChrisYeah.
LeeIncredible.
AdamOh, not only that, but also it's that lovely thing of polite evil.
ChrisYeah.
AdamYou know, where she's sort of she's still quite.
AdamIt's it's not it's not a sort of trapping person.
AdamWell, it is, it's trapping her by making her complicit in it.
Chris
AdamBut it's really from a desire of, no, come on, it's fun.
ChrisYeah.
AdamCome on, you'll love it.
AdamI and and also there's a lovely sort of class sort of attitude of classism with it.
AdamWhere it's like, come on, you join in because I have to put up with these fucking yokels.
LeeYeah.
ChrisYeah, and you're like me.
ChrisYou know.
AdamYeah, yeah, we we know.
LeeIt's it's that it's like it's not like the Slip, where it's the like you say though, the evil person who's pretending to be nice.
LeeShe really is nice in some ways, she just doesn't give a shit about everybody, which is completely wrong.
LeeBut yeah, as you say, when she comes out, it's not like she's suddenly turns into this evil sinister, she's exactly the same person, but she's just going, yeah, all right, you called me, this is what I'm up to.
LeeAnd it's brilliant and absolutely outstanding.
AdamAnd I also I have to say the Batistes' house, carry on screaming.
LeeYeah.
AdamThat's all I could think was it just looked like lots of wood paneling and very vivid purples, you know.
LeeYeah.
LeeI I always forget as well, Leonard Rossiter.
ChrisOh, so I was going to mention him.
LeeHe just appears on screen and every time I go.
ChrisYeah.
LeeYeah.
AdamAnd I think he does very well.
AdamAt one point, he does put his hand like he does put his hands on his back.
AdamI know he does at one point, but I think that is just I think that's just him.
AdamI think that's just how he's done.
LeeYeah.
AdamBut I read a really good book lately, it might not be for everyone, well, or or say maybe not for everyone.
Adambut there's a book called Code Damp by Sophie Slay Johnson.
AdamAnd it's basically like a a study of Leonard Rossiter as Rigsby and Reggie Perrin in the Rise the Fall and Rise of Reginald Perrin.
Adamabout it has a sort of occult working with Leonard Rossiter as an almost trickster shaman figure.
AdamAnd it's fucking great, it's bloody madness.
LeeIt sounds amazing. I love the sound of this.
AdamAnd but for
AdamBut yeah, I think that he's obviously, yeah, so you got Rise Rise and Damp, which me and Claire and Reggie Perrin.
AdamMe and Claire because I've been reading Code Damp.
AdamMe and Claire have been re-watching them.
Chris
AdamAnd that's.
AdamAnd actually, thank you Lee because I found the card because you and Jennifer bought me the complete Rise and Damp one year, and I've still got the card in there like the Christmas card.
AdamIt was a little cat card.
LeeOh.
AdamSo.
AdamSo thank you again.
LeeThank you very welcome.
LeeAgain.
LeeThat was a while ago, I don't even remember that.
AdamBut then but again, it's that weird thing.
AdamLike Leonard Rossiter worked with Kubrick.
LeeYeah.
AdamYou know, there's people in here who sort of like not it's not just you know, it's a right pedigree of actors.
LeeI was going to say Michelle Deries as well.
LeeIs just an.
LeeI mean, a much younger in this, obviously, so it was fairly early in her career, but she carries so much of this film with her performance, it's absolutely brilliant.
AdamYeah, she does it brilliantly and so obviously she was.
AdamBetty in some Mothers do Have Them.
AdamWe're not doing the impression.
AdamAnd but also she's in another great folk horror, she's in Blood on Satan's Claw.
AdamAnd she's fucking brilliant in that as well.
LeeYes, yes.
AdamWhere she's one of the wayward like school children and they're all fucking horrible that lot.
AdamYou know, they're really She's really good at that and and again, it come it comes out in this.
AdamYou know, it's sort of, yeah, I mean and she also she was she was married to Edward Woodward.
AdamAnd it is official Thomas law that you have to do that.
AdamThere are certain things you mention whenever someone comes on the screen.
AdamAnd one of them is Michelle Dece, and you have to go, you know, she's.
AdamDo you know she was married to Edward Woodward.
ChrisYeah.
ChrisJust a.
AdamJust a thing, and if I don't do it.
AdamI will have to go I will be beaten the next time I got.
AdamBut obviously she was in I mean, she was in Inside Number Nine, and I forgot she's in that really good Rivals of Sherlock Holmes with Donald Pleasance.
AdamThe Horse of the Invisible.
LeeI don't think I've seen that.
AdamOh man, you've got to see that.
AdamThat's a it's a Carnacki story.
LeeOh.
AdamDonald Pleasance plays Carnacki and he goes to check into the.
Adama ghost a ghost horse.
LeeYou're going to have to send me that after we finished recording.
LeeBecause I don't forget.
LeeI need that in my life.
AdamAnd Michelle Dece is in it as well.
AdamAnd she's great.
AdamAnd it's yeah, it's really fucking good.
AdamThat's the Rivals of Sherlock Holmes is a show I recommend anyway.
Adambut yeah, I'll yeah, I'll remind me at the end, but I'll I'll send that over to you.
Adambut the so like so Joan Fontaine had obviously the book that she is so sorry, yeah.
AdamSo the book is called.
AdamThe Devil's Own and it was by Nora Loft, who is a crime writer.
AdamBut she wrote she the is published under the name Peter Curtis.
LeeOh.
Adambut then the script is adapted by Nigel Neal, who created Quatermass.
AdamAnd that definitely comes up in there because I think that the interactions with the village.
AdamLike the people.
AdamThe one thing that Nigel Neil manages to do is everyone sounds like a human being.
ChrisYeah.
AdamYou never no one ever sounds off.
AdamHe just has a real ear for how a character sounds and across sort of, you know, across sort of like continents and things like that.
AdamHe just gets everyone right.
AdamOr sort of like like their social position or whatever like that, he just manages to do that really well.
AdamAnd I think it it there's bits of this that come out.
AdamBut when she but when Stephanie's saying about witchcraft is a science.
AdamThat's so like that's a pure Nigel Neil thought that is.
LeeYeah, absolutely.
LeeOnce you know once you know his style, you could pick it out even without having spotted his name at the beginning, it's got that.
AdamDefinitely, definitely.
AdamAnd he apparently kept trying to persuade the filmmakers that they should make it a black comedy because he couldn't get he said he couldn't get the the tone right of the book.
ChrisInteresting.
AdamSo and he was like so he was he was trying to say make it a black comedy.
AdamWhich I think is kind of in there.
AdamBut it's not it's not a funny film anymore than it's you know what I mean?
AdamIt's not as it's not a scary film in that sort of sense.
AdamIt has its little moments.
AdamBut but it's definitely not a funny film, but it it it does have it feels very Royston Vasey.
ChrisYeah.
ChrisIt's almost on the edge of like being either way, you know, you're sort of held up to this point.
ChrisI think there was a bit the the butcher when he was cutting up the rabbit.
ChrisI was like.
AdamYeah.
ChrisHe just.
AdamHe just keeps laughing.
ChrisYeah.
LeeYeah.
AdamYou know, and I mean that's just like that's Father Ted, that's the laughing priest, you know what I mean?
AdamIt's just like, yeah, because that's Duncan Lamont who is in.
AdamQuatermass and the Pit, the Hammer Quatermass, he's the drill guy Sladen.
AdamSo it it all jumbles up and comes back itself.
ChrisAnd then when he picks picks her up later in the car as well.
AdamYeah, that bit that bit is that bit I I can definitely see in League of Gentlemen.
AdamThere's
ChrisLike don't don't get in any cars with any strange men.
ChrisI appear to be in one.
AdamBut but also and I and I love the I love the fact that it's basically there.
AdamHe doesn't, I don't know, the the brother, I can't think of his fucking name now, Allen.
LeeYeah.
ChrisYeah, yeah.
AdamIt's like so he turns up dressed as a priest.
ChrisYeah.
AdamThen it turns out he's not a priest, but he just wears it to feel better.
ChrisYeah.
AdamYou know, or to feel, you know, as as like a sort of form of mental armor, so that he'll feel comforted by the fact that, you know.
AdamAnd I try to be a priest, but they they wouldn't have me.
AdamYou know, and it's sort of it's like it's almost like he's, you know, if he'd want to be a policeman, he'd be a security guard.
AdamBut there's no sort of thing of that.
AdamFor for being a priest.
LeeYou throw all one of your heart.
LeeBut it works perfectly for the misdirection.
LeeBecause when you don't know who is running this coven.
ChrisYeah, absolutely.
LeeYou you are convinced absolutely that it's him.
AdamAnd he's utterly shifty, but as it turns out because.
AdamHe's covering for Stephanie because he is in no way shape or form equipped.
ChrisYeah.
ChrisYeah, to do to do.
LeeThe way, you know.
AdamHe is just yeah.
AdamAnd but yeah, just that sort of.
AdamBut and.
AdamAnd again.
AdamNormally in a film like this, he would definite that would definitely have put him in the villainy stakes.
AdamHe's one of the few people left in the village at the end of this.
LeeYeah.
AdamAll the coven move out.
AdamAnd he's going.
LeeYeah.
AdamYou know.
AdamAnd it's like, oh yeah, no, I'll just oh, I think, you know, do you know what? I think he's husband material.
LeeYeah.
AdamYou know.
LeeAnd and not wanting to skip to the end quite, you know, too quickly.
LeeBut yeah, that that coven bit at the end that I love.
LeeI always forget how long that goes on for.
LeeLike that whole ceremony lasts for ages.
LeeAnd again, it's you if you once you've seen it the once, you pick up on it the next time when they drop in how she's going to basically overthrow them all.
LeeBut yeah, so you're just waiting for it to happen the whole way through.
LeeAnd it's just that anticipation of when is she going to is she going to do it in because she really does wait until the last minute.
LeeShe could have just snuck a bit of glass or something in and done that at any point before it all went bat shit.
AdamDown and throw up down the Yeah.
LeeYeah.
AdamThere you go.
LeeI I would have thrown up whatever that sludge was she kept feed fighting over. I don't know what that was supposed to be, but it looked grim.
AdamI I think that whole sequence.
AdamBecause that's again, I think that's one where that's where it's sort of like divides people.
Lee
AdamBut I think if you've I think if you've gone along with it, you go along with that end sequence.
AdamBecause and.
AdamIt is odd choreography, do you know what I mean?
AdamIt's sort of it it's very it proper is like movement as opposed to necessarily dance.
AdamYeah.
AdamBut it's sort of, yeah, and the fact that it's actually clearly I mean, there are there are clearly actual dancers in there.
AdamBut you know, the fact that.
ChrisI think that's what makes it almost seem more real again.
ChrisLike.
AdamThe fact that the cast are in there and everything and have been, you know, I mean usually with this sort of thing, you think, oh, they wouldn't have bothered.
AdamBut they've they've they've.
AdamSat there and thought about this and done it really fucking well.
LeeYeah.
AdamAnd it does the only thing I find with that bit, though, or or any of the sort of coven sequences.
Adamis why do you go and put on rags?
LeeYes, I said exactly.
AdamAnd yourself up.
LeeI was like, why are you wearing all these like you were wearing perfectly respectable clothes earlier and now you're wearing ones that look like you've put them through a threshing machine.
LeeI don't understand.
LeeBut again, I don't know it.
LeeYou know, it might be one of those, you know, like when they used to, was it Crowley and stuff used to bury their clothes in a graveyard, so it had the smell on it and all that kind of stuff.
AdamIt it could well be I mean, it could be any number of reasons.
AdamIt could just be that Stephanie's a terrible snob and it's like, right, you lot.
AdamYou've got to dress like as a of, you know, a BBC Sunday cereal beggar.
LeeYeah.
AdamWhere I'm here in like, you know, some of the some of the most beautiful finery you'll ever see.
AdamYeah.
Lee
AdamMartin Stevens as well.
LeeI really liked in this, who obviously everyone knows from Village of the Damned and The Innocent.
AdamYes, yes.
Leea fantastic child actor.
AdamI think this is the last film he did.
LeeOh, was it really?
AdamYeah, I think or it might have been like nearly the last film he did.
AdamBecause obviously he got a bit older.
AdamHe went on to be a yeah, he was yeah, I think it was.
Adamapparently he just lost interest in acting and became an architect and meditation instructor.
ChrisAll right.
AdamSo that's he just he'd obviously just had the bug as a kid.
AdamAnd then he was like, yeah, that's enough.
AdamYeah, got bored of it now.
AdamSo.
AdamWhich is a can I just say is a lot happier than the majority of child stars.
ChrisYes, does seem to be, yeah.
ChrisThat was probably the right decision.
LeeYeah, you to stay in Britain and not go to Hollywood where it all turned into a big horrible mess.
AdamYeah, I mean it's yeah.
AdamIt's and and did you spot Aunt Barru?
LeeNo.
ChrisNo.
AdamYou know Mrs. Creek the shop owner, Michelle's mom is, yeah.
LeeYes, you're right, it is.
LeeOh my God.
LeeI did not put two and two together with that.
AdamOr as I've put it down here, oh Barru, it's fucking Star Wars.
LeeYeah.
AdamI was just like, whoa.
AdamAnd actually one of the right near the start of it you got Rudolph Walker, who's like now just done years in EastEnders.
Adambut he was in Love Thy Neighbor and
Adamhe was in he was in The War Games and he was in The Thin Blue Line and the all new Alexi Sa show.
AdamAnd but yeah, it's just that that's one of those ones where it's just like, he's just been in stuff for years.
AdamAnd barely looks different, it's quite impressive.
AdamBut yeah, so it's weird when you look at it.
AdamThere's quite a few people who are sort of like comedy performers or sort of made their name in comedy productions like Michelle Dece and Leonard Rossiter and stuff like that.
AdamAnd yeah, but it just goes to prove that fact that it is, you know, it's still acting.
AdamIn fact, it's harder because you you mustn't laugh.
LeeYeah.
AdamWhen people are being brilliantly funny, so it's yeah.
LeeYeah, and I I love seeing Gwen Davis as well because she she also is in The Devil Rides Out as well.
AdamYes, of course, yeah.
LeeBut she's one of those actors I haven't seen her in anywhere near enough.
LeeI think these two and she's in an episode of Sherlock Holmes, the Jeremy Brett ones, I believe.
AdamYes, she is.
AdamYeah, because she's she's in the Master Blackmailer.
AdamThe Charles Augustus Milverton one.
AdamYeah, she's in that.
Adambut yeah, there's it's quite nice that they've got.
AdamBecause the guy the the father Doucet he's in a really good show called The Guardians, which I watched, which is like a 70s show about.
AdamI mean, you might want to watch it as an instruction manual, but it's basically Britain under a fascistic government.
AdamSo you you know, you might might want to just, you know, tip your head that way.
AdamBut his but his wife is
AdamShe was Alphagon's neighbor, the woman who used to live upstairs in Alphagon.
LeeOh.
AdamAnd it's like, yeah, there's loads of fucking comedy names in here, but then my mom always used to say, yeah, but Britain had three actors back then.
LeeYeah.
AdamYeah.
LeeYeah, I think this is one of those cornerstones, I don't think this film gets anywhere near as much love as it deserves because when people think Hammer, they do think you know, the Dracula franchise and the Mummy franchise, and they think about those huge franchises that went on to do stuff.
LeeYeah, and I just feel like a bit like The Devil Rides Out, this is one that because it's only one film, just kind of gets forgotten about.
LeeBut the same with The Nanny.
LeeThe Nanny is a fantastic movie.
LeeSo.
ChrisSo is that another one that's not not for horror?
LeeOh no, that yeah, no, that.
Adamthriller, isn't it? It's that grey area where you get thrillers into horror and vice versa.
LeeYeah, it's highly unpleasant and uncomfortable, but it's not like a supernaturally.
LeeYeah, it's that's a great movie.
LeeReally good.
AdamYeah.
AdamBecause I remember when that box came out, they they said, oh, no, it hasn't got any of the decent Hammer films in there, and I remember you buying it and just going through them and being like, no, The Witches is fucking amazing. Nanny, The Nanny's great.
AdamDo you know what I mean?
AdamAnd it was like all these because I think they'd been packaged in as, oh, well, these are the films we're not going to be able to shift on their own, so we'll stick them in like a 10 disc box set or something like that.
LeeBut that was why it was perfect, because it's all the ones I didn't it was all the stuff like Vampire Zombies and The Reptile and Yeah, all the stuff that I hadn't taken the time to I mean, to the Devil was in there as well.
LeeBut you know.
LeeYou know too much.
LeeYeah.
LeeYeah.
Leebut yeah, and that's why a lot of these films aren't recognized the way I think they should be.
LeeSo they're the ones that I just hadn't seen until I got the box set, which is why it was absolute gold to me, because I was like, this stuff I prefer to the big franchise ones.
LeeAnd and most of them don't get aired or hadn't had any kind of proper like publicized releases, so I hadn't been to track them all down, so when they all just arrived, thankfully as a Christmas present, all nicely wrapped up, I was like, oh my God, there's so much content to go through.
LeeIt's incredible.
ChrisSo I didn't realize the Wicker Man was Hammer.
ChrisAnd we still haven't done.
AdamNo, The Wicker Man's not Hammer.
AdamThe Wicker Man.
ChrisIt's not Hammer.
AdamOkay.
AdamNo, The Wicker Man is actually, I is it Charlamagne, it's like Christopher Lee's own company or Jake.
ChrisOh, okay.
ChrisOh yeah, no, I've seen it's under the non-Hammer section that was the top, that's why.
AdamYeah.
AdamBut but I mean it is it's weird because of all the things for Hammer to have sort of kind of innovated in.
AdamIs a lot of The Witches then goes on to be the staples of folk horror to come, but that's much more the 70s.
LeeYeah.
ChrisOkay.
AdamThere's also a really good, if you want there's a I think there's a BBC TV film called Robin Redbreast.
AdamI think it's BBC.
AdamBut it's it's old and but it's it's after The Witches.
AdamI'm sure it is.
ChrisOh yeah.
AdamBut but it's it's very it's very similar ground.
AdamAnd it's actually kind of because it's all in black and white, I'm not sure, I don't know whether it was because the colour version's been lost or whether it was always in black and white.
AdamI can't remember.
AdamBut the only version you can see is the black and white one.
AdamAnd it is oddly creepy, you know, but it is very.
AdamIt's it's very sinister in ways that the but it's sort of follows the same sort of path as as The Witches.
AdamYeah.
Adam
AdamBut it's yeah, it's it's a nice companion to The Witches.
AdamIt's not trying to be.
AdamIt it's.
ChrisI mean it's an interesting to see you.
AdamYeah, it's definitely definitely worth seeking out.
AdamBecause I remember I remember when I saw it, it was sort of like this is kind of like The Witches.
AdamBut it's its own thing and to be fair, The Witches it like we said, it's an archetype.
AdamEspecially folk horror is that the outsider turns up.
AdamI mean this could be, you know, there's there's bits of the.
AdamI mean, there's definitely bits of this in like The League of Gentlemen and Mr. King.
AdamBecause they're all taking from those same sort of sources, but yeah, Robin Redbreast is well worth tracking down.
AdamBecause it's very sort of light, it's it's a nice companion to The Witches.
AdamIt's not trying to be it's kind of the same story, but told differently, you know what I mean?
AdamIt's like here's two variants of the essential plot, you know.
LeeThat's that's the I think the perfect companion place to this as well, would be Night of the Eagle.
AdamYes.
AdamYeah, very much so.
LeeAgain, that it's that it's it's almost the same story but it's different enough that it's that yeah, you could watch them side by side and not feel like you're watching a remake.
LeeIt's got enough going on to be different, but yeah, follows very much the same creepy vibes and.
LeeYeah.
LeeAnother epic.
LeeDid we cover that?
LeeI think we.
ChrisI think we did.
ChrisYeah, I'm pretty sure I was just getting some flashbacks of Eagle.
AdamYeah, we did.
AdamYeah, definitely.
AdamProbably it could have been like four four years ago now.
AdamI think it was so long I think it might have actually been when I still put backgrounds up.
AdamBecause I seem to remember my stupid fat grinning face in front of the black board with belief question mark on it.
LeeYeah.
AdamSo.
Adamyeah, so I think it was whenever we so that would have been probably when we first started recording like separately.
LeeYeah.
AdamYou know, probably so probably COVID, so it's probably about five years ago now.
ChrisCould be.
LeeYeah.
LeeBut yeah, again, and Knight of the Eagle exactly the same, you know, absolutely amazing film.
LeeBrilliantly creepy and subdued and kind of under the radar.
Leebut yeah, one that you don't I I certainly didn't anyway, discover until many years later, because it isn't so well known.
LeeSo when you go to your, you know, you go to your HMV or whatever, it's never in there.
LeeIt's one of those things you have to really go to efforts to track down, but oh, but when you do, oh, incredible.
AdamYeah.
AdamIt's it's a weird one, and it's definitely those little sort of bits that you have to tease out of the big chunk that is hammer.
LeeYeah.
AdamEspecially because like you say.
AdamA lot of the franchise stuff there's good and bad, but but overall it's quite diminishing returns on those sort of things because you kind of know what you're getting.
LeeYeah.
AdamWhereas actually when a when a film can turn around and give you as and this isn't based on like a classic.
AdamThis was based on a book, but it wasn't like, you know, it wasn't the th and like adaction of it.
AdamYou know, or whatever like that, you know.
AdamIt's sort of.
AdamSo I think it it can it's one of.
AdamIt's wonderful that it can surprise you.
AdamSo it's a shame that if you've listened to this point.
AdamBecause obviously we spoil it, you should watch it before we spoil it.
AdamI cannot be held responsible for this.
AdamIt's 1966.
AdamCome on.
LeeI think I'm going to have to track a copy of that book down and read it for myself because I'd be very keen to see how it reads.
LeeAs Nigel Neal was saying, oh I had trouble trying to bring it to the screen and make it creepy or as creepy as the book.
LeeYeah, so I'd be keen to give it a read and see how it how it compares, really.
AdamI cuz I think also it's it might be one of those things where because there are certain there's certain things you can do in a book that become laughable if you try and translate them onto the screen.
AdamSo, but yeah, I I no, I'd be interested.
AdamLet me know if you're if you'll have success there.
LeeYes, I shall be looking that up. oh, also,
LeeJust before we wrap up for the evening, because I didn't want to wait until next time we do the what we've been watching.
Leebecause you brought it up on the last one, I did just want to say, yes, you mentioned obviously Broken Vale.
AdamYes.
LeeOn our what we've been watching.
Leeand I.
LeeYes.
LeeWe we went away and listened to the whole thing in two sittings, one drive away for the weekend and the rest and on your long drive. Oh, how creepy was that?
AdamIt's brilliant, isn't it?
AdamIt genuinely is.
AdamI think to be honest, I don't know, I mean Chris, it's it's available.
AdamI don't know if you're a podcast listener.
ChrisThis this was a podcast.
ChrisYeah, okay.
AdamYeah.
AdamI would almost be tempted to do an episode on it.
LeeYes, I I'd be happy to talk about it for an hour.
LeeVery happy to.
ChrisAnd this is the one that's not like other podcasts, it's more like a radio show.
AdamIt's it's essentially it's a six-part series, which is
Adambasically it's two writers and they're looking for a way to make a podcast and they the two writers play themselves and it's them looking for a podcast.
AdamAnd then they sort of hit upon the idea of doing stuff about the supernatural, but they don't want to do anything obvious.
AdamLike, you know.
AdamTread the same warm paths as everyone else.
AdamSo they just asked their friends if they've got any weird stories and one of them comes up.
AdamTrumps with something.
AdamAnd gradually it sort of seems to connect to other stories that they've heard from other friends.
AdamAnd yeah.
AdamIt just builds into a very nice little little story.
AdamIt's great.
ChrisYeah.
LeeAnd very good in being able to go it's very original.
ChrisI was going to say it.
ChrisCertainly sounds original.
AdamNo, it's not not like anything I've ever heard before.
LeeAnd and I love that format as well.
LeeBecause I find radio play, as much as I like a radio play, especially I love old time radio play.
LeeThe old ones from, you know, 30s and 40s.
Leebut I I do find them a bit hard to listen to now.
LeeI don't listen to very many radio.
LeeBut because it's made as a podcast rather than as a radio play.
LeeFor some reason, I I just I found it so immersive and so because they are just playing themselves.
LeeThey're not playing characters.
LeeThey're playing themselves in a fictitious scenario.
LeeAnd it just it's absolutely mind blowing.
AdamWell, as I say, that first episode.
AdamNot knowing what it was other than
AdamWriters who I really liked had done another podcast.
AdamOr podcast that I really liked done another podcast.
AdamAnd that first episode, as as episode two got into it, I was like, right, I I've got it now.
AdamThat first episode.
AdamI took it straight on face value.
AdamI thought, oh, really.
AdamThis could be real.
LeeYeah.
AdamYou know, because it was just the way they did it, you know.
AdamAnd then it was like, oh no, right, okay, that's clearly now.
AdamI'm now getting that it's a fiction.
AdamBut that first episode where it's just them and Tony Way.
AdamAnd that weird little story.
AdamFelt like enough of a weird little story.
AdamAnd then I was like, well, maybe they'll go on next week and look at something else.
AdamOr, you know, then it was like, oh, it's all starting to link up.
AdamRight, okay, it's a narrative.
LeeI've got to admit, I was starting to get the sweats at the end by the end of episode five because I was thinking, they've only got half an hour.
LeeAnd there is so much, and I was like, there's no way they're going to be able to wrap this up in a way that I am going to be in any way happy with.
LeeAnd then they totally killed it with that ending.
LeeIt was so perfect.
AdamIt was wonderfully because it's not an ending in a way, what they've done is they've done the smartest thing of they've sort of followed the idea of how you listen to say uncanny.
AdamBut you get to the point where it's like and then do you do you get a resolution at the end of any like sort of study of the supernatural?
AdamYou never get a revolution at resolution at the end of it anyway.
AdamBecause it's always that classic thing, you know, it's like, will we find bigfoot?
AdamNo, because I'd have fucking heard when you did, I wouldn't have waited three years for your fucking documentary.
AdamSomeone would have mentioned it by now.
AdamAnd similarly, you know, so in in that respect, they're sort of like, oh no, we're actually.
AdamWe're in the open-ended ending anyway, you know.
AdamBecause that's what you'd expect from the genuine sort of paranormal podcast.
AdamI suppose.
AdamSo yeah.
LeeYeah.
LeeNo, absolutely fantastic.
LeeSo it was already on my radar, and then when you were excited about it as well.
LeeI was like, yeah, I need to I need to wipe wipe the whole of my playlist for the drive to Norfolk and back.
LeeAnd just solely focus on listening to this.
LeeOh yeah, and it was a.
LeeIt was the best choice I could possibly have made, so.
LeeYeah, I think we definitely need to come back and talk about that for a full episode at some point.
Adamsounds like a plan.
ChrisYeah.
AdamWell, what have we got lined up next, Mr. Lee?
LeeOh, that's an excellent question.
LeeDefinitely wouldn't have done is come on here without having brought it up first.
LeeSo I know what I'm doing.
AdamI think I remember, but let's see what's on.
AdamWas it Plague of Zombies?
LeeIt is Plague of the Zombies.
AdamBecause because these were two Hammer films that Chris was like, I hadn't heard of.
AdamAnd we were like, yeah, you've got to see these fuckers.
AdamSo.
LeeYeah, so Plague of the Zombies is the next episode.
LeeAgain, one I absolutely love, I think I've only seen it a couple of times.
LeeSo I'm definitely well ready to to give it another view.
LeeI mean it sounds like.
ChrisIt's going to have a lot of zombies in it.
LeeYeah.
AdamI you you may be surprised.
Chris
AdamYou won't be.
AdamNo.
ChrisYou must be.
AdamAnd can I just I'm just going to I'm going to leave you with a little hint, Chris, for a while.
AdamI had a line of dialogue from the Plague of the Zombies as my text alert on my phone.
ChrisOh.
AdamAnd that line of dialogue was Cornwall, but it's miles away.
LeeYeah.
AdamYeah.
AdamThat's all you know.
ChrisOkay.
AdamYeah.
LeeOh, actually just very quickly before we sign off, as well, because I know I haven't mentioned this to Adam, but I thought I would while we're here.
LeeOn the way back from Norfolk, stopped off a place called Castle Aker Priory.
AdamOh, right.
LeeYes, it's a big old Priory in Norfolk that is now just ruins.
Leeit's where the opening shots of the Tomb of Ligeia were shot.
AdamOh.
LeeI managed to line up a photograph of me standing exactly where Vincent Price would have been when the young lady rides in on her horse.
LeeSo I'll I shall have to share that with you.
LeeI'm very pleased with myself.
AdamRight, well, I'm I'm going to make I'm going to sort of put in a a motion here to the to the to the polit bureau, as it were.
Adamso we're doing Plague of Zombies next.
AdamI reckon after that.
AdamWe do Broken Vale, give Chris, give Chris a few weeks to check it out.
AdamIf he's happy with that.
LeeYeah.
AdamAnd then we could do the Tomb of Ligeia, cuz I want to see how you line up.
LeeI I think I've only seen the Tomb of Ligeia once, maybe twice.
LeeI went on like a Vincent Price, Roger Coleman, I had to own them all.
LeeYeah, I watched it when I bought it, and I don't think I've gone back again, but.
AdamWell, it'd be it not only that, but also it'd be real fun for Claire because my God, that girl loves Vincent Price.
LeeYeah.
AdamShe really, really does, it's become it's so heartening to see someone just, you know, embrace the embrace the full love of that man.
AdamBecause he is extraordinary.
LeeOh, he really is.
LeeYeah.
LeeAbsolutely fantastic.
LeeRight, thanks ever so much for listening, everybody.
LeeGo and check out The Witches, go and check out Plague of the Zombies ready for next time, and we will see you all in a fortnight's time.
LeeThanks very much for listening.
LeeGood night.
AdamGood night.
