The Red Shoes

Name: The Red Shoes
Director: Emeric Pressburger
Released: 1948
Cast: Anton Walbrook, Marius Goring, Moira Shearer, Léonide Massine, Robert Helpmann

Transcript

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LeeGood evening and welcome to Horror.

LeeI'm Lee.

ChrisI'm Chris.

AdamI'm Adam.

LeeAnd we are here for Lady Jennifer's birthday choice. Hello Lady Jennifer.

JenniferWe're having a party.

DannyHello.

LeeIt is a party. Some of us are drunk.

ChrisSome of us are trying to dance.

LeeWell, we'll discuss whether it counts as dancing or not.

LeeBut we have to introduce our final guest as well, this is a bit of a party episode, there are five of us this evening.

LeeWe're also rejoined by frequent guest and music expert, Danny.

DannyHello.

LeeGood evening, Danny.

DannyGood evening, thanks for having me.

LeeSo we are here at the behest of Jennifer for her birthday, because she went to a ballet with Danny.

LeeA lot of booze were drunk and they decided they would like to cover.

JenniferWe had a couple of beers in the intervals, didn't we? As is appropriate as a ballet.

LeeYou went to the ballet, I got wankered. That's right.

JenniferThat's right, okay.

LeeAnd on the train on the way home, we'd all decided that the best thing to do was to cover this movie, which I'd never seen.

JenniferYou got drunk, we convinced you.

LeeYes.

JenniferI can.

ChrisNow what did you go and see?

LeeThe end of your life.

JenniferWe went to see.

DannyIt was Wolfworks which was choreographed by Wayne McGregor and music by Max Richter based on Virginia Woolf.

DannyReally, really good and first time I've seen a laser show in the Royal Opera House as well.

AdamWow.

DannyYeah, trying to get the kids in, you know.

DannySo.

JenniferThat was very good.

JenniferBut yes, so we convinced Lee and we shall find out if that convincing was successful or not.

LeeNow, I've got some questions. Now, just I just need clarification.

LeeBecause obviously my knowledge of ballet is very limited, and it's pretty much based majoritively on what I've seen this evening.

LeeI'm just going to preempt this by apologizing to anybody who's a fan of ballet, which I know is Jennifer who did ballet, Danny who is a fan and Chris who's I did one lesson of ballet. He did, he did. I can, I can. Just to get the sweets at the end. I wasn't going to fucking out you, I was just gonna say you're a dancer. He wasn't Billy Elliot, it's all right. Yeah, that is that is a bit more recent, she does and she is getting quite obsessed, so I think I may be experiencing quite a bit more ballet in my future. You may. It might not be the end.

LeeOkay, so.

LeeSo have I got it right that ballet is basically two and a half hours of music with no vocals?

JenniferYes.

LeeAnd it's all dancing.

LeeWhich basically is ten moves where they just stand on their toes.

JenniferNo, no, okay.

LeeNo, I'm right, okay.

LeeAnd you basically you have to know the story before you go in.

JenniferBut you read the story in the book that you get, yes.

LeeRight.

LeeSo it's so it's a shit musical with fucking homework.

LeeHow is this not, how is this not just fallen out of favor, I know it's not popular, but it should be far out.

JenniferI feel like it's quite popular and you'll find out why by the end of this episode.

LeeAny middle class wankers who are now listening, please fuck off.

LeeWe don't need you and Ellis.

AdamCould it be one of those things?

AdamI'm in.

DannyIn the room right now.

LeeI bet he's included in the room right now.

JenniferYeah, Tom, let's play your answer.

DannySorry.

LeeTom.

JenniferDanny, readers out the door.

DannyI'm gonna love this five minutes.

AdamI'll be honest, on the basis of our response for our least haunted call out, we need all the listeners we can get.

ChrisSo.

ChrisIs it after the tenth viewing of a ballet, that's when you appreciate it?

DannyThat's a good question.

LeeI mean.

AdamIf this is your only one.

JenniferOkay, Danny, because obviously, I'm assuming you didn't do ballet, which obviously why I love it, having danced, but not you know professionally.

DannyI didn't.

AdamI thought you meant you loved it because Danny didn't do it.

LeeI mean.

AdamThat threw me.

ChrisI've never seen him dance at all.

JenniferAs someone.

DannyLet's let's have Jennifer. It's got a long list of women who have loved me for things I don't do.

JenniferDanny, makes you appreciate ballet.

DannyOkay.

DannySo it was, I mean, I supposed like, like most other people, the first kind of exposure to ballet is going to be something like Swan Lake.

JenniferYeah, cuz it is, it's just one of those, I guess it's the starting point.

DannyOh yeah, of course, so I've been studying violin since the age of seven.

DannyAnd I performed in a lot of what a lot of orchestras and a lot of string ensembles where we played music from ballet.

DannyWhen I did my A levels in particular, we had to we went to see a lot of ballets and musicals as part of the course.

DannyAnd like studying and like getting that kind of side of musical history and the orchestration.

JenniferIn general.

DannyNo, I loved it.

DannyAnd what what really happened was you know we're all 17 or 18, being left to our own device, we were given a ticket to go to a ballet, like once every fortnight.

DannyLeft to our own devices, it was, you know, there was halcyon days.

DannyBefore people used to ID for anything.

JenniferNo.

JenniferFirst.

DannySo, you know, we'd essentially go to the pub very, very early doors, been absolutely bladdered by the time we go to see, like, a three and a half hour ballet based on the Jack the Ripper for example.

ChrisBrilliant.

DannyThat's that's Lulu by Berg, just in case you wants to go and see that next time that's in town.

DannyThat's a very dissonant one.

DannyBut actually precursor to that was, I I remember seeing this film when I was about eight or nine years old.

DannyAnd I think it's it's it's just stuck in my memory ever since.

DannyIt was, I vividly remember it was a Saturday afternoon, I was really pissed off, I wanted to play FIFA on the SNES.

DannyAnd and my mom made me stop it to watch this film.

DannyLike, you know, if if nine year old me knew what the fuck sake, man, he would have said out loud.

DannyBut I just remember like watching this film and being absolutely in awe of it.

DannyIt was it was the first time I was like I'd seen an old film and I hadn't felt like it was an old film.

DannyYou know, it was, I think as we were discussing before, before we watched it, Adam, like it, you know, it's just a good film, not a good film for its time.

AdamYou're not you're not making any allowances for it, it's it's like Hitchcock, where it's that thing of, oh no, this is just a good film, this is not, oh this is a good old film or this is a good film for its time, this is just a good film.

DannyI do still approach a lot of ballet that I see, I do go quite regularly to the Opera House still.

DannyI I still approach it music first and dance second, I don't really completely, you know, I I can understand like the emotion of the performance or stuff like that.

DannyI can understand the story.

DannyParticularly if I've read it beforehand, but I'm still catching up in that regard.

DannyWhich is where I suppose Jenny will take over really.

Jennifer

JenniferI I mean, you just watch it and you know how painful it is and how hard it is and yet it looks like it's so.

AdamLee might not fully appreciate that.

JenniferNo, I think that's it, I think that is part of the appreciation for me.

LeeBeing punched in the balls and not flinching is really hard to do, I don't want to watch someone doing that.

JenniferDo you try it out though, should we try it.

LeeNo.

LeeAnd and I do appreciate the music.

LeeAnd as you say, the film was fantastic.

LeeSo I'm not rubbishing the film.

JenniferThe outfits.

JenniferThe whole set.

JenniferI mean.

LeeCouldn't give a fuck.

JenniferThe whole couldn't give a fuck.

LeeIt's.

JenniferThe shoe shop, how can you not love a shoe shop?

LeeIt's just it's just it's the thing.

LeeIt's it's a like you said, it's in the program, it's a one paragraph explanation of what it is.

LeeAnd it takes three hours of people standing on their toes.

JenniferNo, you get a whole.

AdamI mean Adam will tell us the whole red shoe story.

AdamThat kind of.

LeeYeah.

AdamThey gloss over that quite dramatically in.

JenniferYou appreciate it more, Adam.

AdamIt's, yeah, because so it's Hans Christian Andersen fairy tale.

AdamSo it actually has a proper, well, exactly, it has a proper lineage and everything.

AdamBut it was first published in 1845.

AdamBasically, Karen, an orphaned peasant girl is adopted by a rich old woman.

AdamAnd she grows up spoiled and it's basically a lesson in don't be a spoil ourself.

DannySo far, so Hans.

JenniferOh.

AdamShe's Karen.

AdamShe has the the old woman who adopts her, she gets her to buy her a pair of expensive tailored red shoes to replace some ones that she had from her previous parents.

AdamThat are just sort of you know nackered old rough sort of.

LeeShoes worn by bracket.

AdamYeah, basically, yeah.

AdamShe wears them to church and that's very considered very improper.

AdamVery improper.

AdamBut she that doesn't deter her and then on one church visit a mysterious red-bearded man.

AdamCompliments her shoes.

JenniferThe devil.

AdamVery possibly, he taps them one by one.

AdamWith his hand and says, never come off when you dance.

AdamWhich admittedly sounds like don't spaff when you dance.

AdamBut I think he's talking to the shoes.

AdamOn leaving church, she tries a few dance steps and then finds that the shoes are actually controlling her.

AdamAnd she manages to bring them under control but not before they've sort of exerted a certain level of power over her.

AdamThen the adoptive mother dies.

AdamAnd she goes to a dance rather than the funeral.

AdamWhich again, I would imagine is considered fairly improper.

JenniferImproper.

AdamAnd an angel appears who curses her to dance forever.

JenniferOh.

AdamDouble cursings.

JenniferThe shoes and her.

AdamAnd well, she's cursed to dance even after she's dead.

AdamThe shoes take control again, she is trapped dancing, she as they say in the film.

AdamShe travels all around the place just dancing permanently.

AdamEventually, absolutely exhausted, she asks an executioner to chop her feet off.

JenniferThat's what I remember, the feet chopping off.

AdamHe does that and then she has a set of wooden feet and crutches.

AdamAnd tries to go to church to sort of redeem herself.

AdamBut every time she tries to go in, the shoes dance in front of her with her severed feet still in them.

AdamAnd this continues, you know.

JenniferThat would improve the ballet, wouldn't it, honey?

LeeI don't think they could do those effects enough in.

LeeAnd this is the problem, I don't think I would get this story.

LeeSorry.

AdamEventually she prays to God for help and then the angel reappears and she is forgiven.

AdamAnd she is saved.

AdamBy having her.

AdamHer far.

AdamHer heart filled with so much joy, it explodes and she dies.

JenniferWhoa.

AdamAnd that is the redemption that she is given by God.

JenniferExploding heart.

AdamYes.

AdamAlthough apparently they did put in there something like and then she goes to heaven and no one mentions the red shoes.

AdamLike it's like some taboo subject.

AdamLike don't mention his wife, you know.

DannySo this is Old Testament God, right.

AdamYeah, this is this is this is a cruel bastard, so.

LeeSo they're they're telling all of this story without any words and purely through very, very boring dance.

LeeI don't get how I would sit in.

AdamInterpretive dance.

LeeNo.

JenniferYou would have read the story first.

LeeInterpretive dance is very, very boring.

JenniferAnd you would know the story and then you go to the ballet and then you'd.

LeeSo it's homework.

JenniferNo, you read it at the ballet, you get it there, you get these, you know, the program.

DannyAnd more often than not, you know, as, as Hans Christian Anderson fairytale or, you know, Brother's Grimms fairytales have been adapted to make it more palatable for children.

DannyThen the same thing would have happened for the ballet of the red shoes as well, like, you know, just to make sure there weren't too many severed feet flying around.

DannyWhich for us would have been a great children's.

JenniferMaybe they'll remake it.

LeeI was going to say, we CGI now, maybe Marvel.

AdamI believe there is a there is another red shoes from about 2005, I think it's Korean.

JenniferOh.

AdamOh.

JenniferI mean they would have played some drums.

AdamAnd I'm assuming on that basis, yeah, they've probably got severed feet dancing in it, you know.

JenniferI mean I feel we might need to hunt that down then for, you know.

LeeI mean again, I don't want to shit on this film because it was a very good film.

ChrisJust take out the ballet.

JenniferCome on, what was good about it, Lee, come on, help yourself out here.

LeeI mean I mean.

LeeIt was a beautiful looking film.

LeeAnd the thing is, the music is fantastic.

LeeAnd I think.

ChrisSo as a musician, that's an interesting question.

ChrisI guess, do you tend to listen to that sort of music?

LeeNo.

LeeI wouldn't listen to that sort of music at all.

ChrisBut you can still appreciate.

LeeBut like orchestral music.

LeeIs I mean, again, having been in a band with four or five people.

LeeI know how difficult it is to keep.

LeeEveryone.

LeeYes, Adam, we were in that band together.

LeeI know how tight it is.

LeeTo keep people in a band.

LeeSo keeping an entire orchestra for a whole two and a half hours of one massive on some day.

JenniferThat's why bloke at the front with his stick.

LeeYeah.

LeeI mean, Danny obviously is more the expert in this than I am.

LeeBut I mean, it's it's.

LeeIt sounds fantastic and it's amazing to see it in person is phenomenal.

LeeAnd I've been and seen that type of.

LeeYou know, like, you know, I've been to see Jeff Wayne's War of the Worlds, just seeing a full orchestra is an incredible thing.

LeeAnd to feel it in person is awesome.

LeeSo I get that.

JenniferI assume this was written for the film.

JenniferThe score.

DannyYeah, the score was so the red shoes score, well, for the actual ballet itself.

DannyAnd a lot of the incidental music wasn't something like you know, Copellia or Swan Lake.

JenniferNot ballet there.

DannyThat was written by Brian Easter and I believe it won best original score at the Academy Awards as well.

JenniferOh, wow.

LeeIt's no wonder he's surprised.

DannyNo, it's a stunning piece of music, it really is.

AdamAnd actually this was one of the few films that had best Oscar nominations except for actors. And I think it was the sniffiness was because the majority of the, well, certainly anyone who's dancing in it is a ballet dancer.

JenniferNot an actor.

AdamWhich was then we were saying before, I think that Powell and Pressburger's take on it was that they were we want to find dancers who can act, not actors who can dance.

AdamSo they know that that side of it was absolutely sorted.

JenniferWell, the majority of this is dance, isn't it?

AdamExactly, yeah.

LeeNone of those performances let you down though.

AdamNo, absolutely.

LeeNone of those people.

AdamI mean, the guy, the guy who's playing the choreographer, he's fantastic.

AdamBrilliant, but I do suspect that he is playing himself.

AdamLiterally, I I think he's, I don't know if that's, you know.

AdamBut yeah, so I mean he most of them don't have many sort of credits outside of the red shoes other than other performances or other filmed ballets.

AdamIn fact, one of the weirdest things is that the principal, the principal male dancer.

AdamIs is the child catcher.

LeeYou know what?

AdamFrom Chitty Chitty Bang Bang.

LeeI almost said, he really reminds me of the child catcher.

LeeAnd I was like, he's just cuz he's dancing.

AdamYes.

LeeBallet.

AdamRobert Helpmann, but he was a ballet dancer and that's why he got the.

JenniferWhich was first, this was first.

JenniferI assume, yeah.

AdamThis was long before Chitty Chitty Bang Bang.

AdamBut also if you look through his credits, the amount of ballets in which he plays the devil.

JenniferYeah.

AdamIt's it's really sort of.

JenniferIt's his eyebrows.

AdamI think it must be, but something cemented that career.

JenniferIt's typecast.

LeeI mean, he's fantastic.

LeeAnd everybody in it is like the the.

LeeAnd that's that's the thing, it was like that, I I didn't dislike the film.

LeeJust to be absolutely clear.

LeeI know I said it.

JenniferBut it hasn't made you love ballet.

LeeNo, no, it's made me hate ballet even more.

JenniferLet's see what Chris thinks after being introduced to horror and welcome to ballet.

ChrisWhat made the film good was that you potentially could enjoy it without seeing too much ballet.

ChrisBecause they did keep it relatively low, there was just the large section in the middle throughout the rest there wasn't a huge amount, there was snippets.

AdamIt reminded me, it reminded me of like a sports movie almost because the.

ChrisYou're done. You know, you have to help teams around the subject, but it's not necessarily.

JenniferThe mighty ducks.

AdamYeah.

AdamI was thinking Raging Bull mostly, but you know.

JenniferWhat's that one, we'll build it, they all come.

AdamField of dreams.

DannyAlthough I suppose you know like most sports films the centerpieces are in it, it's in the center, it's in the middle rather than at the beginning.

AdamThey want to put those bits in.

AdamAnd it's yeah, I think it's yeah, I don't think you need to be, you certainly.

AdamI mean it's made Lee ballet averse, but much in the same way that the first Sam Raimi Spider-Man gave me vertigo.

AdamYou know, it's just it's just going to be.

JenniferI don't like yours.

JenniferYeah.

ChrisSo the other film that I've seen that is ballet is Black Swan.

ChrisWhich I did really like that and I was expecting this to be.

JenniferMore like that.

ChrisYeah.

JenniferI feel like it was.

JenniferChris, that was probably.

ChrisIt was very.

JenniferYou could.

JenniferAlthough.

ChrisAlthough there was.

ChrisAlthough there was a lot more comedy in this, which I thought they they did really well.

ChrisSo Danny, what you said earlier about it not seeming like an old film.

ChrisAs we were watching, I was thinking this does feel kind of modern in a way.

JenniferIt feels.

ChrisAnd I don't know, yeah, many other old films that I've seen that I would have thought that about.

ChrisBut yeah, I I did think the acting, comedy and the way it was shot all seemed to lend itself to.

ChrisI think as well that the kind of meta story to it that it's happening to her in real life.

ChrisHe's trying to push her to become this, you know, ultimate dancer.

ChrisAnd that's what the Red Shoes ballet is about.

DannyAnd I guess it is very meta.

DannyI mean there's it literally highlights the Checkoff's gun in the first that's what happens there at the end, well she dies, of course.

DannySorry, it's quite a.

AdamAnd that.

AdamAlso, I think the fact.

DannyFor a 75 year old film.

DannyThat's on you, fuck it, yeah, if you're out that point, yeah.

ChrisI'm I'm going to say most of the people listening may not.

JenniferIs it 75 years old?

DannyIt celebrates its 75th anniversary this year was made in 1948.

JenniferThat's ridiculous.

Dannythe BFI are going to be putting on a Powell and Pressburger season in October with a 4K restoration of this as the center piece of that.

JenniferOh, wow, I feel we should go.

LeeThat'll look fantastic.

LeeBecause it was a beautiful looking film.

DannyI mean, well, I mean.

JenniferWill it be ballet there, darling?

JenniferYou have to wear your earphones.

LeeOh yeah.

LeeNo, I'm not going.

AdamYeah.

AdamBut also, I love the fact that it goes out of.

AdamIt's it's a you know, it does it as a pure experience of the ballet, it doesn't stick to right, factually, they're on stage doing this ballet.

AdamThey go out into the fantasia, you know, fantasmagorical levels of what it's projecting rather than the actual, you know.

AdamIt's not we're just going to film them performing this on stage or whatever like that.

AdamBecause there there are certain parts of it that clearly could not take place on stage.

AdamYeah.

LeeBut they the effects look great as well.

LeeI mean, for the time, I I thought they looked really good.

DannyI mean everyone celebrates the, you know, the match cut at the beginning of 2001, but the bone becomes the space.

DannyI would say that there are about five or six match cuts in this film that piss all over that.

LeeYeah.

DannyAbsolutely incredible.

DannyYeah.

DannyAnd like, the technically.

DannyIt's a brilliant film.

DannyThe editing's incredible, like especially when she's performing in the small theater in the Saturday Matinee and you see the camera spinning as she's doing all of those.

DannyIt's just stunning.

ChrisI also I went ice skating the other day and keep seeing all of the bigger skaters and did manage to spin.

JenniferOh, good.

ChrisShe was very excited about that and I guess that does come from.

Chrisballet.

ChrisAnd so I thought I'll give it a go.

ChrisAnd I practiced and practiced and practiced.

ChrisAnd then eventually I did get it and I got dizzy so quickly.

ChrisI was like, yeah, I don't know, this must be my age.

ChrisYeah, I don't know.

JenniferIt's.

ChrisIt's just.

JenniferYou have to find a spot where you can handle this.

AdamI called Bert, just looked at your dinner.

AdamI said Bert, that was made yesterday.

AdamIt's like, Ted, will you sit down cuz you make me dizzy?

AdamIf I'm making you dizzy, just look at your dinner.

LeeYeah, I.

LeeYeah, I mean it it was, it like you say, the camera work and everything was so.

JenniferWhat was of its time just to put it in perspective, like what else was out?

ChrisThe smoking everywhere.

JenniferOh yeah, they.

JenniferI mean what other films were doing.

AdamI'm thinking 1948.

JenniferI mean it was after Gone with the Wind.

ChrisYeah, it reminded me of Scarlet O'Hara.

ChrisLike you felt like that was a you know.

LeeHer outfits were outstanding that massive green ball gown that she wore, the purple thing underneath just looked fantastic.

JenniferEven her hairstyle was very Scarlet.

AdamThe the crown had an element of Man's Ash tray, though.

JenniferOh.

AdamYeah.

AdamYou know, it's like this is a far too elaborate ash tray for, you know, for for normal for 10 10 PH.

JenniferBut what about as in an opera queen, I mean, did she have an ash tray like that?

AdamI there was a lot of items like that, a lot of a lot of colored glass.

JenniferYeah.

DannyI just had a quick Google.

DannyOf course in 1948.

DannyThe only two I actually recognized are Abbott and Costello Meet Frankenstein.

JenniferOh.

JenniferYou've done that one.

DannyYou have.

DannyAnd Rope.

AdamOh wow.

DannySo that's how far back in Hitchcock's career we are at this point as well.

AdamWow.

AdamBut then actually we need to do Rope as well.

AdamThat's that's the one.

LeeWe need to cover.

LeeNo spoilers.

AdamThat's something to come out of this.

AdamBut then I think that's, but then that's probably the the whole fact is that those are the three films that are like that you recognize on that list.

JenniferAt that time.

AdamBecause they're the ones that have stood up.

JenniferOh, yeah.

AdamYou know.

JenniferBut where was Rope in Hitchcock's sort of career?

JenniferThat was how many in or roughly.

AdamI mean he was working from the silent era.

JenniferOkay, right.

AdamBut I mean it's before we hit that, that, you know, that run of like North by Northwest into Vertigo, into Psycho, into Birds.

AdamYeah, very early.

AdamRear Window obviously.

AdamBut still, yeah, I mean it's not very.

AdamJust.

AdamBecause so Powell and Pressburger were a team and they did everything, they were writers, producers, directors and everything else like that.

AdamThey did, I think they made about they they made about 16 films together and they called them they called the production company The Archers.

AdamSo that's what the bows I think at the start.

JenniferOh.

JenniferIt's like The Archers, where's the.

AdamBecause it is slightly confusing because yeah, because the first first time I ever saw a film that started with that, I was like, is this as in The Archers?

JenniferYeah.

AdamBecause it's quite confused. Is it a farm show?

JenniferOr peaches and cream.

AdamBut yeah, they so and they sort of and unusually for this sort of thing.

AdamEven when they went off and did their own stuff, like they sort of basically producing throughout the sort of 40s and 50s.

AdamWent off and did their own stuff, but actually were still friends.

AdamAnd it was an they just decided they wanted to move on and.

AdamIt wasn't one of those things where it's like I've now decided that this man needs to never darken my door again.

JenniferIt was the film that they had to leave completely and go start another.

DannySo their their run of films was, yeah.

JenniferYeah.

JenniferDid they work for a company, as it were, or that was their company?

AdamThe Archers was their company.

AdamI mean this was this was with Rank.

LeeRight.

AdamWho apparently Jay Arthur Rank, like the head of the Rank organization walked out of the screening of this.

LeeReally?

AdamAnd basically.

JenniferIs he like Lee?

AdamI think it, yeah, I think you like the ballet.

AdamBut no, basically Rank like it went over budget and you can see it probably went over budget.

JenniferI mean, but not a ballet shoes, massive.

LeeMassive outfits.

LeeYou spent a lot of extra.

AdamYou've got like basically a whole ballet company in there, you know.

AdamBut yeah, so it went over budget and Rank, the Rank organization was basically just like we've been saddled with this, so they didn't release it for a year.

LeeOh.

AdamAnd like apparently they even, like as the ultimate slide, they left it on the the like.

AdamWhat's it like the cargo loading bay.

JenniferOh, they didn't even store it away.

AdamDidn't even bother putting it away, they were like, nah, fucking leave it there and so the cans were just left there on the thing.

LeeOh my god.

AdamSo it's lucky it's even around.

LeeThat'd been a loss.

AdamAnd then they put it out in London Art House Cinemas.

AdamBut.

AdamFortunately, it just got brilliant word of mouth.

AdamAnd then they were like, oh, maybe we have got something, so they started doing it more and then I think it was like another year before it was out in the States.

AdamBut I think in the end.

AdamWhere is it?

AdamLike yeah, they.

JenniferIt was American made though, but then to come over here and.

AdamYeah, but I mean Rank was, so but the Archers were, well, Michael Powell's British and Emre Pressburger's Hungarian.

JenniferSo was it filmed over here?

AdamSo it was filmed over here.

AdamAnd it's like like the the most majority of the ballet cast were the Sadlers Wells Ballet and like, but yeah, it actually they.

AdamThe San Francisco Fine Arts Theater screamed it four times a day solidly for two years.

JenniferOh, wow.

JenniferThat's popular.

AdamSo, you know, they.

AdamReally did not realize what they had.

AdamBut then when I was looking into it, apparently like Powell and Pressburger stuff at the time was kind of mixed.

AdamIt wasn't an immediate success, everything all their films were kind of like they gradually got more sort of prestige.

JenniferDo you think it was like lack of money?

JenniferLack of, you know.

AdamNo, no.

JenniferIt was at the time.

AdamIt was just I think it was just literally like the critics were.

AdamTo be honest.

AdamI think it was probably just too fucking new.

JenniferYeah.

AdamIt was too fresh that they were like people like, well, I don't understand this because this isn't people.

AdamThis isn't two people.

AdamThis isn't two people in a room talking.

DannySo cameras can move then.

AdamTen minutes and then we go outside for ten and then come back in for another. Cans can move this, color, super in position and things like that.

AdamYou know, and and cutting, you know.

AdamAnd yeah, so I think they, but gradually they sort of built up a name for themselves.

AdamAnd then by the 60s, they were very much a that's when they really were appreciated.

AdamThat actually we.

AdamHad these people making these really good films, because the the only other.

AdamThe only other Powell and Pressburger film I've seen is A Matter of Life and Death.

AdamWhich is really worth seeing.

AdamIt's basically a RAF pilot.

AdamDavid Niven plays an RAF pilot who dies, goes to heaven.

AdamBut wants to come back.

AdamBut the curious thing they do is that heaven is in black and white.

AdamAnd reality is in color.

AdamNow, usually you sort of do like the Wizard of Oz sort of thing where you go to the the fantasy world is the one you do.

AdamBut yeah, it's very austere sort of like black and white photography when they're in heaven and there's this beautiful image of holes in the sky with people looking down through them.

AdamAs like windows onto people in heaven observing things on Earth.

AdamAnd again, it's one of those things that's like, this is from the 40s, this this is really, you know.

AdamIt it looks good, it would look good now, you would compliment it now.

AdamAnd much in the sort of saying way that like the whole red shoe sequence in this is so extraordinary, you know.

AdamBut but no, they they've definitely, you know, they've definitely worth and then we will be doing Peeping Tom.

AdamWhich essentially ended Michael Powell's career because by then.

AdamThey've got to the point of like, hey, these are these guys who did all these prestigious films.

AdamAnd then it's like, he's done a mucky slasher film, what did he do that for?

AdamMuch much like Hitchcock and Psycho, where it was like everyone was like, what's this dirty little weird movie that he's made?

AdamAnd actually, yeah.

DannyAlthough then again, I mean, you know, one of the other Powell and Pressburger films was Black Narcissus, which was you know, pre as much as you could get away with with the Hays Code.

AdamYeah.

DannyPeeping Tom was obviously when people were just kind of like, Hays Code, I've got that.

DannyMaybe it was just a again, like everything else they did, everyone was playing catch up to it.

DannyBecause it was it was just so frequently ahead of its time.

JenniferYeah.

AdamI mean, in terms of in terms of pure horror.

AdamObviously we've got the fairy tale.

AdamI mean, basically someone is driven to suicide, so that's already, you know, that's pretty much on the cards.

LeeAnd that was my thought watching it.

LeeThe whole time I was like, this isn't horror, it's the horror of this that they've made me watch two hours of that.

JenniferYes, Lee.

LeeBut then the last ten minutes I was like, nope, now it's all kicked in.

LeeAnd yeah, it totally is.

JenniferI wrote down earlier, slow burn, like slow burn.

JenniferBut it gets there.

LeeAnd I thought you were burning me.

LeeBut no.

LeeIt definitely did, I mean, it definitely falls into our wheelhouse.

DannyI would say that, you know, while you were being bored shitless by the dancer, a lot of that imagery would really comfortably fall into.

AdamAbsolutely.

DannyYou know, into the realm of horror as well.

DannyEspecially like the I think I don't think it was the newspaper person.

DannyWhich I still can't believe they managed to.

JenniferHow do they do that?

AdamYeah, it's incredible, isn't it?

DannyNo idea.

AdamLiterally from what I can gather.

JenniferGot some newspaper on.

AdamYeah.

LeeOh, that is really impressive.

JenniferVery clever.

AdamYeah.

AdamI mean that whole bit.

AdamWith the cellophane imagery.

JenniferYeah, that was cool as well.

AdamYeah.

DannyWhere the camera's like a group of people have become like a gelatinous blob.

DannyAnd they're advancing towards her.

DannyThat is just like.

LeeIt's almost.

AdamThat's quite Lynchian.

LeeI say Roger Corman, he's got that very like psychedelic.

AdamYeah, that's it.

LeeHallucinogenic colors.

LeeYeah, yeah, yeah, it was really it was a beautiful film.

LeeI'm definitely not knocking it.

DannyI do have to disagree with the whole, you know, ballet doesn't tell a story.

DannyJust but specifically with this, I would say.

DannyBecause throughout that story and throughout like the, so there's there's the scene where she's dancing on the stage and then Craster's in the conducting.

DannyThen he comes up and then it match cuts to him as a dancer and then he's still.

DannyIt's all kind of like it's it's it's not just about what it's not just foreshadowing what's going to happen in the film, it's also her mental state, her emotional state while she's doing it.

DannyAnd and that power struggle between what she wants, you know, in terms of career.

JenniferThat's why women at the time again.

JenniferIt's a kind of, you know, that whole thing of saying, well, actually, you can have one or the other.

ChrisYeah, shoes.

JenniferI mean it's.

DannyEven the choice that women have to make.

JenniferYeah, yeah.

LeeAnd I do agree with that.

LeeBut as ballet dancers on a stage.

JenniferNo kicking feet.

LeeThat wouldn't have happened like that was all film effects.

LeeRather than something you could have portrayed on the ballet stage.

LeeThat would have been I don't know how that.

JenniferI was thinking you know the whole mirror with her in the shop.

JenniferThat could have been Pepper's Ghost.

AdamYeah.

LeeThey could have done that.

LeeYeah.

LeeYeah, it could have been Pepper's Ghost, but then it would have had to have.

JenniferWell, similar to her, just a ballet dancer underneath.

ChrisI would say, I don't know if you agree as well, but I got that from her performance very much so and more of a Sheer's, well, first and foremost, she was.

AdamYeah.

DannyYeah.

DannyYou know, repe ballet dancer.

DannyIt was her first ever film role and she didn't do very much else other than that.

AdamNo.

AdamBecause I mean, she left, basically, when ballet, because obviously ballet dancers, it's always a horrendous fucking toll physically.

AdamProbably more so than like even athletes and things like that.

AdamYou know, it's just it does.

JenniferIt gives you tied by.

Adam25, 30.

AdamI think it was 27 and she and she was going to move into acting.

AdamBut yeah, she didn't do much.

AdamBut watching this, because this is the only I mean, she's in Peeping Tom as well, but this is this is the only film I've seen her in like properly watching.

AdamAnd I'm like, you're a fucking good actress.

AdamDo you know what I mean?

DannyAnd her first role, 22 years old.

DannyStunning.

AdamAnd and it but like you say, because she's a good actress and it comes, it does come out in the fucking dancing, there is the it's definitely there.

AdamAnd.

AdamYeah, I just think it's sort of I mean it's just the weirdest thing that you were like.

AdamRight, we'll go out and find these people who can do who can do the physical demand of actually doing the ballet.

AdamBut actually they can act as well.

JenniferSo how did they find her?

JenniferI mean she was obviously famous already.

AdamShe was in the basically a lot of them came from the Sadlers Wells Ballet.

AdamShe was the Prima ballerina there.

AdamI think apparently at the time in she was ranked, I don't know if ranked is the right word.

AdamBut basically it was Margot Fonteyn and then her.

JenniferAll right, oh, wow.

AdamSo she was.

JenniferEveryone knows Margot Fonteyn.

AdamYeah, so she and similarly Robert Helpmann was the was the primary male dancer at Sadler's Wells as well.

AdamSo a lot of it was they may have swept in.

LeeAnd went, hey, we need some dancers.

AdamYeah, and just so happened that they actually found people who can act as well, do do the role properly and everything.

AdamAnd she was I mean that was the thing she was noted as well because you know the hair is natural, the eyes and that.

JenniferWell I know, I kept looking at her hair going, that's not natural.

LeeBut no, she dyed that, she's got very stunning look.

JenniferNormally ballerinas have it all up in a bun.

JenniferBut again for this, you've got the red hair, like it's quite, I suppose symbolic perhaps of that whole, you know, red shoes and everything else.

AdamShe she ended up married to the journalist Ludovic Kennedy, who apparently saw the film.

AdamAnd went, I want her.

JenniferI want her.

JenniferI'll marry her.

AdamAnd then he basically pestered her for about a year.

JenniferWow.

LeeAnd then.

JenniferYeah.

JenniferYou think coming down the film.

JenniferShe might have learned, you know what, that's true.

AdamDays in the misogyny where you could just it's it's Yeah, I mean the warning signs should have been there, he's sitting there doing his magisterial take on 10 Rillington Place.

AdamI'm not really sure if this is going to be for me, but but yeah, it's but Marius Goring who plays, oh, I can't remember what his name is.

LeeI'm not really sure if this is going to be for me, but but yeah, it's but Marius Goring who plays, oh, I can't remember what his name is.

AdamJulian Craster, yeah.

AdamHe basically was, I mean he he is an actor.

AdamHe is an actor.

LeeHe is an actor.

AdamAn actor, actor, but he ended up.

DannyYeah, first role, 22 years old.

AdamWell, not ended up, but he basically he was a big movie actor and then he moved more into telly, so during the 60s and 70s, he's in like Hammer House of Horror.

AdamHammer House of Mystery and Suspense, Tales of the Unexpected, he's in Evil of the Daleks.

AdamHe's in just he basically that's what he moved into.

AdamBut I actually had to double check it because he looks so much like the lead actor from Peeping Tom, that because he looks quite.

AdamHe's tall, you know, he looks quite dramatic and yeah, so I just I think he's good.

AdamIs he good?

LeeYeah.

AdamYeah, I mean, it's also Marius Goring is just one of the most spectacular names.

AdamAs it is.

AdamYou know, Julian Craster suddenly is like, well, that's John Smith.

DannyI was I was keeping an eye out, I mean, obviously, I've seen this film a few times before.

DannyBut so when he's performing for Lementov when he comes in and, you know, and he's playing the piano.

AdamI was going to ask you actually, yeah.

DannyYeah, cuz one of my pet peeves is when.

DannyThey're clearly not playing an instrument that they're supposed to be.

DannyI I no word of a lie, I've only seen 12 Years a Slave once because why the fuck would you ever want to watch it more than once.

DannyIt's, you know, great film, horrific subject.

AdamYeah.

DannyBut there was a scene where so the lead character in that is a fiddle player, he's not playing it.

DannyTook me out of the scene and something really horrific happens in it as well.

DannyAnd he's not playing.

LeeFucking violin.

DannyNo.

AdamI've reserved it.

DannyBut in this, he was playing it, he he had to have been there was like the octave movements with what was happening with the left hand as well, it's definitely.

AdamFun enough when when that bit came up.

AdamI was like, I must remember I was start actually, cuz it must be, you know, really great when you.

JenniferWe hope they got the ballerina, why would they not get someone that could actually play.

DannyThis is why I respect Pixar and Disney so much when they make like, so something like Coco.

DannyEvery single hand movement in the left hand of the guitar is absolutely perfect, they really do their homework for it.

LeeNever watched crossroads.

DannyOr the British kids ones.

LeeNo, the movie with the kid from the Karate Kid, they did it like, yes.

LeeSo they did a film about Robert Johnson with Ralph Macho playing it.

LeeNo.

AdamOh, right, I see.

LeeAll right, I see.

LeeRobert Johnson.

LeeTakes him under his wing, and it ends up he becomes better than Robert Johnson.

LeeAnd then he ends up playing against Satan's own guitarist.

JenniferBut can the not playing guitar.

LeeThat's the problem.

LeeI mean it was one of those films that came out not long after Karate Kid, so as a 10 year old kid I've probably seen it two dozen times and loved it.

LeeBut yeah, my father always sat and watched me and went, fuck off, every time he picked up the guitar.

AdamI had a weird moment there where you said crossroads, in my head I heard trespass.

AdamYou know that film where Ice Cube, where they're like two firemen go to find treasure in a building.

AdamI was like, I'm not sure what the relevance is here.

LeeIce Cube.

AdamI don't remember that scene at all where they're playing the fugal horn.

LeeHe's not playing the fugal horn.

AdamHe's not playing that fugal horn.

LeeHe's not playing that fugal horn.

AdamYeah.

AdamI mean this is a film I've always wanted to see.

JenniferOh, good.

AdamAnd now I'm very glad that I have.

JenniferOh, good.

AdamThat was, yeah.

ChrisSo Chris, as you brought up Black Swan.

ChrisDid you find a lot of similarities or differences between it, because I I was there was another character that I was meaning to talk to you about, I don't know if you picked up on?

ChrisOkay, so what it what it set me thinking was, because in Black Swan they they're sort of pushing her to a breaking point.

ChrisAnd in this, I was wondering how, what they're going to show, what's what's the purpose, and when she left it wasn't entirely clear what is she going to do now.

ChrisShe kind of suggested she might work elsewhere.

JenniferShe's married.

ChrisBut then she did, Yeah, and so then when she comes back because she still does really want to work for him, knowing that that is who's going to push her to become the best she could be.

ChrisAnd then yeah, how much does.

ChrisTo become the best have to have some level of pain, like Adam said, you know, just how grueling it can be to be a ballerina and to be the best.

ChrisAnd so yeah, like do you have to be pushed right to that edge and then getting pushed over it as both of them do.

ChrisBut yeah.

ChrisI don't know who's who else was it.

ChrisSo the character that Moira Riley plays.

ChrisIn Black Swan is very, very clearly modeled, I I think anyway.

ChrisOn the Primo Ballerina in the Red Shoes.

JenniferBefore.

ChrisI was thinking that.

ChrisThat's why.

ChrisAnd as.

ChrisWell, those close-up shots of her in the makeup is it's got to be a direct from there.

ChrisThat was.

ChrisI was thinking that.

ChrisI mean he must be a fan.

ChrisHe don't just pull Black Swan out of nowhere.

JenniferI was thinking I'm doing that makeup for the next time I'm dressing up.

JenniferWhy not?

ChrisBlack Swan, but it's anything like it's brilliant, isn't it?

ChrisIt just adds to the look.

ChrisSurely, if you were going to do a ballet film, what would you go to and watch.

LeeThey're the only two I know.

ChrisI was going to say, how many others are there that may have some similarities?

ChrisI can literally name these two.

ChrisThis film about ballet, full stop, I think.

ChrisYeah.

ChrisI mean it's not watch it, but I know it's vaguely setting the ballet world.

ChrisBut yeah, but again, even like the whole, you know, how how far do you have to be, can you be pushed to a certain point where how far do you have to go to achieve greatness.

ChrisWhere I love that scene where as you noted, they're sleeping in separate beds.

ChrisBut he gets up because he's woken up with this melody and he goes straight to the piano.

ChrisMeanwhile, she's looking at her drawer of her shoes and realizing what she's lost.

ChrisAnd it just it just completely shows in that moment, like what you have to give up in order to pursue something.

ChrisOr what you have to leave behind.

ChrisWhich you may or may not agree with.

ChrisBut.

AdamWell, I thought it was interesting that she came out and supported him because I was trying to imagine.

JenniferThat's what women do.

AdamWell, yeah, no, that's showing that that is the role she's taken now.

AdamShe still misses that, but she's trying to be there for him.

AdamYou know, in the middle of the night, two in the morning when he's playing this new melody.

ChrisBut I think that's one of the reasons this film still feels so modern as well, because it's even having that discussion.

ChrisEven though it's set in 1948.

ChrisWhich as well was thinking like that's yeah, three years post the end of World War two.

ChrisThey're just looking all right.

JenniferYeah.

LeeBut he was the one who left his musical to come to her when it was her opening night.

ChrisYeah.

LeeThat's power.

JenniferWhat about.

LeeThat's power, that's control, that's text, but gaslight.

JenniferYeah, what about, is that just me going?

ChrisHe looks like a fucking SS officer.

AdamHe looks the weirdest bit.

AdamHe comes in in like a wet look like in a star po com.

LeeI said that, but he wasn't, well, I'm not waiting two hours for the fucking to go in there.

LeeExactly, I'm not waiting two hours for her to start.

LeeNo, you've gone all that way.

LeeWhat difference does an opening night make.

AdamI I had to look it up, though.

AdamBecause the weirdest fucking thing happened there, cuz I was like, I fucking know that voice on the radio.

AdamPatrick Troughton.

AdamWas the bloke apologizing to him.

AdamAnd then.

AdamI mean this suggests that I might have spent far too much time watching.

AdamI know that voice, what is it?

LeeWell you say that.

LeeThe the one of the very opening scenes when they're all running up the stairs.

LeeWhich again, I think ages.

LeeThis film more than anything.

LeeEveryone's dashing into the ballet.

LeeI was like, nobody gives a fuck.

ChrisI love the fact.

JenniferDanny clarified that for us.

JenniferActually, I think you're fine.

LeeHe did.

LeeHe clarified.

LeeWhen they're running up the stairs, the guy who is standing there who clearly works in the theater, who's trying to sort of slow them all down.

LeeYeah, that is the guy from the Ghoul, I'm fairly certain, who's the family solicitor.

LeeI think it is, who says, come in or go out.

AdamYeah.

LeeI'm fairly certain it's Matt Lee.

AdamI'm pretty sure it is.

LeeBut that, I mean, even down to that.

LeeI love that that I think gave you the the scope.

LeeOf ballet in a weird way.

LeeWhere it was like half of them are there for the dancers, half of them are there for the music.

LeeSo you've got that immediate dynamic going on anyway.

LeeWhich is the essence of the film.

LeeAnd they really they're against each other as well, like the people who are there for the music and the people who are there for the dancing.

LeeAre almost like when you go and see a sports game and you're two separate teams. But even he in the start, he is saying, no, this is how I'm playing it.

LeeAnd she's going, no, this is how I'm dancing it.

LeeAnd again, you've got that until he suddenly goes to, oh, it's all right, I'll do it in your tempo.

LeeYou know.

LeeSo against.

LeeAs long as you put out in the back and come.

LeeSo he's like, no, he just married me.

LeeYeah.

LeeSo.

LeeYeah, he's married me.

LeeYeah.

LeeBut yeah, no, it's interesting.

LeeThat difference between the two.

LeeOh, definitely, you know, in an orchestra, you've got hierarchy between the sections.

LeeLet alone anyone else.

LeeOn stage.

LeeI mean it's a lot of egos and a lot of people.

LeeI mean the people who are there are, you know, the greatest that they can be at the top of their game.

LeeSo yeah, you can totally see how you've got a lot of ego there and a lot of people who have got something to prove.

LeeAll battling against each other.

LeeIn a very small space.

LeeAnd people are going to start niggling and being.

LeeBut also you get that's where you get the point where you can have the the leader of the company.

LeeBecomes Luke God almighty.

LeeI thought this earlier, like that guy, he doesn't do fuck all.

LeeHe he pays.

LeeHe pays the people, but ultimately he doesn't.

LeeHe's not a dancer and he's not a music.

LeeLike he's there.

LeeAnd everyone prays to him, but he doesn't do anything.

LeeIt's like Tony Wilson and Factory Records.

LeeHe said that he couldn't he couldn't sing, couldn't play an instrument.

LeeBut the privilege of paying for pressing Joy Division's first album, he's like, that's my contribution to the cultural heritage of England.

LeeAnd I suppose it's the same thing if you can't do that, at least you can.

Leefacilitate it.

LeeYeah, bring the right people in and everything.

LeeYou know what?

LeeFuck Barbie, Red Shoes and Oppenheimer would be a great double bill.

LeeYeah.

LeeI hereby declare Red Shoes the new.

LeeOh.

LeeNo.

LeeNo, Redheimer sounds terrifying.

LeeI've Redheimer.

LeeGive me some cream.

LeeYeah.

LeeWe should watch first.

LeeI don't know, I'd have to toss the coin.

LeeAnd hope he explodes and kills me.

LeeI'm sure he'll have his big opening night a lot earlier.

LeeYeah.

LeeOn that note.

LeeI guess.

LeeYeah.

LeeI'm sure.

LeeOkay.

The Red Shoes

About

Cast

Famous lines

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The Red Shoes

About

Cast

Famous lines

Transcript

Ep 186 The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari

Ep 148 The Pit and the Pendulum

The Black Cat

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