Seven
01:13:57
About
“What’s in the box?” It’s Adam’s Birthday choice, and he’s opted for wacky screwball rom-com “Se7en” from Hollywood fun-meister David Fincher. “Se7en”, a bleak glimpse into a world spiralling into hell (a bit like the news, but featuring good-looking people you care about). We learn that a man sitting in his own excrement will usually move out of it if he can; we confirm that serial murderers never use their bath for washing; and someone stops Gwyneth Paltrow before she has a chance to make candles that smell like her fanny. The gold standard of art-y serial killer films, Se7en spawned hundreds of lesser imitators, but none of those have taken away the disturbing power of the original. Watch (or re-watch) to avoid spoilers, and join us.
Become vengeance, David. Become... wrath.
Famous lines
- "Seven deadly sins. Seven ways to die."
- "You know, this isn't gonna have a happy ending."— Somerset
- "Innocent? Is that supposed to be funny?"— John Doe
Quotes verified against Wikiquote.
Transcript
Show full transcript
LeeGood evening and welcome to Horror.
LeeI'm Lee.
ChrisI'm Chris.
AdamI'm Adam.
LeeAnd we are here for Adam's birthday choice and and the concluding part of Crazy Bastard month.
Leewe are here covering Seven.
ChrisWhat a celebration we're having.
AdamYes.
LeeIt's it's all for you, Chris. He was like, I'm gonna make my wife's birthday really fucking miserable.
ChrisTo be fair.
AdamYeah, I think he might have had that in mind.
LeeThere will be spoilers and there will be swearing, a little bit late for that, but you you know the score.
LeeYou've been here before, it's fine. so, yeah, for a very very dark morose sort of film, as you just showed us, Adam, there's some pretty good quotes in here.
AdamSo, yeah, for a very, very dark, morose sort of film, as you just showed us, Adam, there's some pretty good quotes in here.
AdamOh, but the thing I forgot is cuz this is, I mean, I was obsessed with Seven when it first came out. I think I saw it at the cinema at least three times. Then I had then I had it on video, I had it on DVD, then the DVD, yeah, so so what what year was you?
ChrisReally?
ChrisIt's like 9456.
AdamIt's it's an interesting one, it's it's 95 but it was released over here in January 96.
ChrisOkay, but so that was probably a fairly early DVD, wasn't it? When did DVDs come out?
AdamYeah, it was, well, because that was the thing, so I got it on video, the DVD was probably about 98.
Chrisokay.
AdamAround the it was DVDs really took off with The Matrix.
AdamSo around yeah, 98, 99, I think.
ChrisYeah, yeah.
Adamand yeah, so I bought I I'd got it on video, I bought it on DVD, but it was like an original DVD where it's like interactive menus apparently count as a fucking special feature. And then the fuckers about three years later released like a double disc with commentaries and fuck it, pretty much the interesting thing is I've got it I I've I've accidentally inherited it on Blu-ray somehow, which is weird, it just turned up on Blu-ray, and I'm like, oh, well, I'm definitely it was like a batch of Blu-rays and they were like, oh, if you want anything out of them just take it. And I was like, well, I'll keep Seven.
ChrisYeah, yeah.
ChrisDeluxe.
Chris
LeeYeah.
AdamSo, you know, that definitely I'll because I'll watch it again.
AdamAnd yeah, there's not the that double disc is pretty much what's on the Blu-ray, there's no they really fucking did a massive job on it when they sort of released it on the special edition DVD.
LeeBut
Leebut you're saying that I actually watched it again, because it was when it came out on the special deluxe double DVD, it was one of the first DVDs that Jennifer ever bought, and that was what I watched it on for this evening, and I can tell you, it looks like Dog Todd, it's fucking awful. Yeah, and it sounds terrible as well. It's such a and it's almost VHS quality. It's like they've just put the VHS on a disc. It's absolutely diabolical.
ChrisDoes it?
AdamOh, well, well, I mean, I I'll be I'll have to say the fucking Blu-ray, yes, they've really it it's definitely the best I've ever seen it.
AdamI mean, it's not quite when you we bought the DVD of Withnail & I after watching my shitty video and you actually realized that the opening sequence is in daylight and he's wearing a light blue jumper, not a dark fucking green one.
ChrisYeah.
AdamSo, you know, it was but yeah, the the Blu-ray looks really fucking nice. And and actually that was one of the things that that came up that I and like I say, I was obsessed with the film, so a lot of sort of stuff notes and things that I took about it were actually me remembering stuff I'd read at the time when I was sort of obsessed over it and everything.
AdamAnd for example, you're saying about like the trouble is with the colors is that David Fincher want basically, I think he's he described it as one of the make a black and white film in color.
ChrisYeah, that's interesting.
AdamAnd and obviously it's very like sort of film noir, sort of 40s detective, almost German expressionism sort of There's a lot of really dark contrast in it and so.
ChrisI guess he's he's kind of done a good job of turning that into something that is accessible still to I would imagine a lot of people.
AdamOh, definitely. I don't think he hasn't done it to the detriment of it being an entertainment entertaining film, it doesn't there's not enough to take you out of it.
AdamBut even when they were processing the film, they did a thing that was like called bleach bypass or silver retention or something like that. And basically celluloid film when you develop it, the blacks sort of wash out because they don't keep silver nitrate in the chemical composition of it, it gets like washed out.
AdamBut they actually had copies of it done with this silver retention thing, so if you saw that version, and I think that's what they've mastered like the latest versions of.
AdamIs yeah, everything's like like it's none more black is you know, there are there are sort of parts of that where it's like it's like looking into an abyss, you know, it's not even sort of yeah.
ChrisNot not just metaphorically.
AdamYeah, it's it's it's literal absence.
AdamIt's really fucking sort of odd.
AdamBut yeah, that and so there was also stuff like that, he obviously had that sort of clear vision for it.
Adamthe one thing I got watching it, probably more than anything was
AdamHoly shit, they really ripped this off for The Dark Knight.
AdamParticularly the ends where it's a lot more all the action bits really feel like later Batman films.
LeeYeah.
AdamAnd I think much in the same way that Heat is definitely an influence on Christopher Nolan Batman films.
Adambut yeah, definitely, I think Seven's and also so much of it is just, oh yeah, I remember the 90s because this film basically meant that every serial serial killer film or crime film afterwards for the next five years had wobbly, scribbled credit sequences and those little sort of things like that.
LeeIt's funny, watching it I was like, oh, this does remind me of my favorite music video of all time.
LeeAnd then I looked and I was like, oh, yeah, David Fincher had made that music video around this time.
LeeSo that explains exactly why.
ChrisOh, yeah.
AdamOh, Judas.
LeeThe video for Judith by A Perfect Circle, which is just phenomenal and looks exactly like this movie.
AdamYeah.
AdamIt really does.
LeeAnd it's got to be said, although I said it looks like absolute shit on DVD, it works for this film, because it's grainy and it's horrible. This film is just so miserable.
ChrisYeah.
LeeI mean, and it it's funny, the other thing is I mean, this is 100% a horror movie through and through, but it is a it is a a police procedural effectively.
ChrisYeah.
ChrisSo.
ChrisSo that's that's what I was surprised about how much it is about and also their relationship.
ChrisSo them them as the the veteran detective
Chrisand the rookie, and how they play off each other, which I thought Brad Pitt and Morgan Freeman worked, and it it's funny, I mean, my head, I I was trying to imagine how it would work before watching it.
ChrisAnd I really did like the way they both were, but yeah, just it it definitely is so much about detective side of it, which I wasn't really expecting that.
LeeWell, they're two such completely different actors, which I think is why it works perfectly, because when you put them in as two people who work together, it doesn't doesn't quite work, as you know, as it doesn't when you just chucked in with somebody and you have to work with them all day every day.
ChrisYeah.
ChrisHow they yeah.
Leeand of course, because they're both Titans, they they just make it not work, but work at the same time.
LeeLike it's
ChrisYeah.
ChrisIt especially stood out when they have the scene where his wife, Mill's wife, which I forgotten her name, she invites.
AdamTracy.
ChrisTracy, yeah, and she invites Somerset round, and it's like then the change and how it's that yeah, just really made it stand out.
AdamSee, that's the weird thing.
AdamI mean, it's it starts grim, it starts on a fucking body.
ChrisYeah.
AdamAnd admittedly not one of the murders, but it starts on a body, so you're already there.
AdamAnd you but that you you do get that feeling of it sort of softens you up a bit because you do get engaged by other aspects.
ChrisYeah.
AdamLike I say, you've got like the the there's a certain thing, the the people who don't give a shit are funny because of not giving a shit, like the cops who it's just a job and they're not bothered.
AdamAnd like when he's saying to why why don't you ask why are you asking whether the kid saw it, who cares?
AdamYou know what I mean? And there's it's almost humorously apathetic and sort of but actually it sort of comes to the heart of it of being
ChrisYeah.
ChrisI think.
Adamneglect and negligence.
ChrisYeah, is that yeah.
ChrisIt does, that really does come across.
ChrisLike the whole city is just this horrible place.
Adam
AdamWell, it's that that's the other thing as well.
AdamIt's basically Gotham without Batman.
ChrisYeah, okay.
AdamIt's got a Joker and this is what happens if Batman's not around because there's no one
ChrisYeah.
Adamfucking enough to work against it in a way.
LeeBut it is it's that constant rain as well, which is exactly just makes it just it makes everything feel grimy and unpleasant and just horrible to be in.
AdamYeah.
AdamAnd that
AdamAnd the weirdest thing is with that, the rain, that was all because they only had Brad Pitt for I think a week.
AdamAnd they thought if the weather turns, we're fucked.
AdamSo they just had it raining all the time in case of bad weather.
LeeOh.
AdamBecause it was like, right, if if if we film in brilliant sunshine and we make it rain, fine, but if we're filming if if we want it brilliant sunshine and it starts raining, we're fucked.
AdamSo, yeah, they just decided that that was.
AdamI mean, it it definitely helps with the I don't think it's just purely that.
AdamIt definitely does help with the sort of.
ChrisI'm trying to figure.
ChrisIs there only time when it changes the end scene when they're driving out?
LeeYeah.
ChrisThat sort of adds something.
AdamCuriously.
AdamSomeone pointed out the first time you see the sun in the film is when John Doe turns up.
Chris
AdamAnd and I suddenly I was suddenly struck by that because it was like something I hadn't seen online, but obviously all the stuff in there like paradise lost, like John Milton and the bit where it says, oh, if we meet him.
AdamAnd he is actually the devil himself, then we might be, you know, that sort of line.
AdamBut then the devil turns up and Lucifer, the bringer of light.
AdamSo it's almost like he turns up and then it's sunlit.
AdamBut that's not actually a good thing in this circumstance, you know.
AdamBut it's interesting, because the the the one thing I I always found is that they do like the second half, the last third rather, like when John Doe turns up, that's the only time they really get on is when a they both real they both agree he's up to something.
Chris
AdamAnd but also when they're sitting there when they're like shaving their chests for the to put the wire taps on.
AdamAnd just yeah, that's the only time you see them really sort of like just knock about and.
LeeYeah, they really connect for the first time after an hour and a half of just being vaguely horrible, yeah.
AdamYeah.
ChrisI was like it's I was saying it is believable because this is quite a case for both of them to be on as a retiring and as his first case.
AdamYeah.
AdamThat's that's another thing, I always I always forget that R Lee Ermey from Full Metal Jacket
Adamis the police chief in this.
AdamAnd he's just fucking again, there's another fantastically funny bit where he's like, when he answers the phone, this is not even my desk.
AdamAnd then he just slams the phone down.
AdamAnd they pull these things in and then roughly around the time of lust, because that is fucking vile.
AdamLike the whole concept of that killing is so horrible.
AdamThat's kind of the turn into, oh, this is actually quite fucking
Adamnasty.
Adam
AdamYou know, that's the point where it's like, oh no, this is, well, as they say, it isn't going to end well.
LeeYeah.
AdamAnd it doesn't.
AdamBut yeah, it's
AdamYeah, just and like you say.
AdamThe the thing I've always, this is the story I heard like years ago.
AdamBasically what happened was is that obviously there's I'll have to Andrew Kevin Walker, who's the scriptwriter who also
AdamI think he did like a few, I think he did Sleepy Hollow.
Adambut he's he's oh and he definitely did the Wolfman, the Benicio Del Toro version.
LeeDo you know what? I don't think I've watched that again since we saw it at Leicester Square on its opening weekend.
AdamBut yeah, and he basically he'd written the script and it was as the ending was as you see.
AdamLike in the film, or pretty much as you see in the film.
AdamAnd basically he was touting the script around and lots of people were like, well, it's a really good script, but we're not going to be able to sell it with that ending.
AdamSo he revised the script as he was going and there were different versions flying around.
AdamBrad Pitt got sent it to like, you know, to see if he was interested.
AdamAccidentally got sent the original version.
Chris
AdamAnd basically put his foot down and said, right, like it got on bold, then they said, oh, well, there's been a cock up, we've got and basically the ending was going to be they rescue like they get to his flat just as John Doe's breaking in and they rescue Tracy.
AdamAnd, you know, and it's an an uplifting version of it, obviously.
AdamAnd yeah, Brad Pitt basically said, well, I ain't doing the film unless we do the script I read.
AdamBecause that's the fucking good film.
LeeYeah.
LeeHe's
Leeabsolutely right.
LeeLike if she'd got rescued at the end, I don't think it would have been the massive kicking the stomach that everyone gets when they first see it.
LeeAnd in my mind, you see her head in this box, when I watched it back, and I was like, oh, no, you just see a cardboard box and they tell you what's in it, you never in my mind, I was convinced we'd seen it.
ChrisYeah.
ChrisI can't believe.
AdamThere is a weird.
AdamThere is a weird little thing though, is and it's weird because of obviously David Fincher going on to do Fight Club.
AdamI there's a just at the end, just before, I think it's actually seven minutes before the end of the film is the timing of it.
AdamBut basically, there is a subliminal cut of Gwyneth Paltrow's face.
LeeOh, really?
AdamYeah, and it's not
Adamit's not her beheaded or anything else like that, it's literally just a close-up of her face.
AdamAnd they flash it just at the point where Mills works out what's in when he says her lovely head.
AdamAnd he's like trying to control himself.
LeeYeah.
AdamAnd they flash it in at that point.
AdamSo kind of you do see it.
ChrisYou do.
AdamBut it's on on a pretty subconscious level, as it were.
AdamAnd yeah.
LeeI've got to say, like I I went through a phase of being as I I think I said it on the interview with the vampire episode of being like Brad Pitt is not a great actor.
LeeAnd I don't know why, like he's a pretty boy and that's why he gets all these roles.
LeeAnd I think the reason is, he did about three films in a short period where he played effectively the same kind of character, and it was this and Fight Club, and 12 Monkeys.
AdamYes.
LeeAnd like he's got very similar mannerisms in all of them, and I think that's kind of why I wrote him off to some degree.
Leebut yeah, obviously like when you look at his whole broad sheet of work now,
Leeit's incredible when you can see how diverse he is, the film he did last year, Bullet Train.
AdamOh yes.
LeeOh, that was just absolutely spectacular, I can't wait to rewatch that, it was fantastic.
Leebut yeah, I think that's what it was, like he did a few films in a short period where he he acted too similarly, like he didn't show his full range, which we we now know he's got.
LeeAnd if you look back at his previous films, but I think a lot of the stuff he did before wasn't things I'd have watched.
LeeSo the start that he did within my field of interest was all a bit similar.
LeeAnd I was like, he's just another person who like he's all right, but he just always plays the same.
ChrisIt's just a Tom Cruise.
LeeYeah, yeah.
LeeBasically, and then but yeah, but now going back to I was like, but it but it nails it.
ChrisYes.
ChrisIt does.
ChrisYeah, yeah.
LeeIn this character.
LeeHe's exactly right.
LeeLike that.
ChrisI I was trying to decide which films it was going to be that you'd say the three.
ChrisBut I I loved him in 12 Monkeys and Fight Club and.
AdamYeah.
AdamWell, 12 Monkeys he did immediately after this, that's what he had to that's why they only had him for seven days because he was going to be filming in 12 Monkeys.
AdamAnd yeah, and obviously Fight Club, I think like three years afterwards, because you've got because they because obviously that's David Fincher as well and you've got the game with Michael Douglas in the middle of it.
ChrisOkay.
AdamBecause they.
ChrisSo I I had a long.
AdamThat is good.
AdamAlthough it used to be, there used to be that thing where people said that David Fincher was like Star Trek movies, all the even numbered ones were good.
AdamRight.
AdamWhich sort of worked up until the point where it was like, so Benjamin Button counted as a crap one, and yeah, and then the next film was The Social Network and it was like, I'd rather cut my genitals off with a rusty knife than watch anything to do with fucking.
ChrisWas like.
AdamI was like, this cannot be fascinating.
ChrisAlthough I haven't haven't watched it yet.
AdamYou got the man who punished the world through seven deadly.
AdamAnd now it's this is the bloke who invented Facebook.
AdamFuck me, actually have sequences in this.
ChrisYeah, yeah.
ChrisI'm I'm assuming he doesn't show him in a good light.
AdamI don't know, I genuinely do not know.
AdamI could not bring myself to watch it.
LeeNo, nor me.
LeeMind you, saying that, I've not seen Benjamin Button either, so.
AdamBenjamin Button was just a bit sort of.
AdamIt was like, imagine if I think the best it reminded me a bit of like if Guillermo Del Toro was a bit too sentimental.
LeeYeah.
AdamYou know.
AdamSort of like like a rich box of chocolates, you know.
AdamSo I feel a bit sick now.
AdamBut but actually in thinking but this was something I hadn't realized as well, but now all four principal cast members are Oscar winners.
LeeYeah.
AdamAnd Kevin Spacey's won twice.
AdamHe won for Usual Suspects and American Beauty.
AdamSo he won like best actor and best.
AdamAnd actually Brad Pitt was the last of them to get an Oscar, he got it for Once Upon a Time in Hollywood.
Chris
ChrisWhich is another film that you really liked.
LeeThat that is an amazing.
AdamThat helped to cement Brad Pitt as as a good actor too.
LeeHoly kick ass.
AdamThe weirdest thing is Brad Pitt really plays an idiot well.
ChrisYeah.
AdamLike Mills is not Mills is well meaning but not the smartest guy.
AdamAnd like Burn After Reading.
LeeOh.
AdamHe is you know, he is just a total goon in that.
AdamYou know, he's just.
LeeHe is hilarious in that.
LeeLike he is one of the crowning things in that film.
LeeHe just absolutely.
AdamBut he does he does it's weird that you can that because it's not because it's never a a sort of like you say, you what's the what was the term, Claire? Distractingly handsome which was and yeah, and so but it's never a really good to look an idiot, but he's he's
UnknownDistractingly handsome.
LeeThat was.
LeeThat was why.
Adamhe can do it and channel it well.
AdamAnd you know, it's.
AdamYou know, he's not there thinking I'm gonna look I'm gonna look bad.
AdamYou know, he's he's acting.
AdamSo.
LeeAbsolutely, and Claire's absolutely right, because that was the reason he didn't get his break in the Elvira movie, wasn't it?
LeeHe turned up for the audition as one of the teenagers in the Elvira movie.
Leeand yeah, Cassandra Patterson said, look, you can't have this kid here, and then I go for the other guy, because there's no way you wouldn't go for Brad Pitt, so you'll have to cast somebody else, because.
AdamYeah, because then it gets faintly as well, because he's a high school.
Leethat as well.
Lee
Leeyou're talking about supporting cast.
LeeI'd never noticed before, I say, I've not watched this film in probably 15 years, John C. McGinley in this as the head of the SWAT team.
AdamYeah, California.
LeeYeah, well, he's I was like, hang on a fucking minute, I definitely I didn't even see his face.
LeeI just knew the voice straight away, and I was like, that's definitely him.
LeeAnd I went and Googled it, and I was like, shit, yeah, it is.
LeeAnd he's in it a few times, you know.
AdamYeah, I'd completely I I totally forgot that it was him, I'd never noticed it was him before, and I think weirdly enough, it was probably the connections that I would have made were after my Seven obsession or whatever like that.
Adambut yeah, he's fucking great in it.
AdamAgain.
AdamNot afraid to look an idiot.
AdamBecause, you know, this is the thing, you do realize that the police are fairly inept.
AdamYeah.
AdamIn that I mean, basically because their best detective just has given up.
AdamAnd yeah, everyone else is a fucking tithead, is.
LeeYeah.
LeeBut yeah, and Morgan Freeman obviously is such an outstanding actor.
Leebut he does, he plays the character in this as someone, as you say, who's given up.
LeeAnd he's just like.
LeeI I I can't do this, like I I can't make enough of a difference to ruin my life to not have enough of an effect.
ChrisYeah, yeah.
LeeAnd it's really he just plays it so solidly, it's Yeah.
AdamYeah.
Leeabsolutely incredible.
ChrisSo what I was trying to work out, it's and it'd be kind of good to go through.
ChrisThe seven sins again, just to remember them.
ChrisBut so so the purpose of John Doe, like he cuz it was fascinating when they're talking in the car.
ChrisAnd and he is explaining it, and because you start off and you sort of like, you know, you hate him.
ChrisBut then he's talking and he's like, there's some sense to it, there's no point would I say this is the way that you should try and bring around change.
ChrisBut his idea of it needs to be hard hitting.
ChrisAnd then at the very end, the detective Somerset says something like it's a fine world and I'm gonna fight for it.
ChrisAnd I.
AdamIt's a fine world.
AdamAnd worth fighting for.
ChrisWorth fighting for.
ChrisAnd I'm gonna I believe the second part of it.
ChrisSo like what what's he mean there?
ChrisLike is he's not gonna retire?
AdamI don't.
AdamWell, because there's the thing where he says where have you been, he just goes around.
Chris
AdamAnd you're like, oh, so you're probably not going to retire.
LeeYeah.
AdamBecause in a weird way, John Doe has shaken him out of his apathy.
ChrisYeah.
ChrisYeah.
ChrisWell, that's it.
ChrisSo.
AdamBecause he's like, well, I've got to I've got to do something if this is the result.
Chris
AdamIf this is like the final of where this goes, perhaps I do need to step in.
AdamAnd because it's interesting because you I love there's a lot of sort of stuff that's unwritten in it.
AdamThat really works well like when the police chief comes in and talks to him.
AdamAnd he's like saying, oh, well, look, yeah, he'll go off and do this, like after the greed and gluttony killings.
AdamAnd then he says, oh, yeah, the lab sent this down, yeah, it was fed to him.
AdamAnd it's just the way he says it as he's like, you're gonna.
AdamI know that you cannot leave this.
ChrisYeah, okay.
AdamYou know.
AdamAnd.
ChrisThe way he picks it up.
ChrisSo so what was it?
ChrisIt was bits of plastic.
AdamIt's shavings from under the fridge.
LeeYeah.
LeeWhere he's dragged the fridge out, and it rips bits of the Lino, he feeds him the Lino so that he knows it'll be found, and then they'll drag the fridge, because he's worried that they won't see that he's hidden it behind the fridge.
ChrisYeah.
LeeAnd like you say, it is it's that bating game, it's like in the other film, with that you won't you could walk away at this point.
LeeBut if I just give you enough to keep you mentally challenged, you'll stick to it.
Adam
ChrisAnd that's that's when realizing the apathy.
ChrisTo some degree as well, he knows that the cops won't necessarily spend the amount of time they really need to.
AdamYeah.
AdamAnd I think, well, I think also, because I was reassured in a weird way, watching it back this time, of how little I just how how not much, but how to an extent I disagreed with John Doe.
AdamOr certainly certainly in his choice of victims.
AdamYou know, when he says, well, they're they're, you know, when he's like arguing that they're not innocent and it's like, well, yeah, and Sloth and possibly the lawyer.
ChrisBut this.
AdamYou know, actually the bit with the lawyer where it's like and you were both secretly thanking me for that one.
ChrisYeah.
AdamAgain.
ChrisThat's why that that was a good dialogue.
ChrisLike oh, yeah, because it was it was funny and horrible, like it was a good mixture, you know, pretty short time.
AdamAnd brilliantly delivered as well.
LeeIt's quite a lot of what I'm sure all of us think of big face.
ChrisWell, yeah.
LeeHe's.
ChrisI was shocked when I saw him here, I did not know he was in it at all.
ChrisI was like, what, okay, that's.
AdamAgain, part of his deal with coming on board was that he didn't want his name on any posters or pre-publicity.
AdamBecause as he because as he said, right, you're looking for a killer, I haven't turned up for an hour, it's pretty obvious at this point, I'm the killer.
ChrisYeah.
ChrisThat's.
ChrisYeah.
AdamAnd that that makes a lot of sense.
AdamYeah.
AdamAnd actually, so he's credited twice.
AdamBecause when the credits roll, it's it just says Kevin Spacey as John Doe.
Adamlike a continuation of the opening credits almost.
AdamAnd then you get the cast list and he is he's cast in order of appearance, so he's credited for at the point where he appears as the photographer.
ChrisAs the photographer, yeah.
Chris
AdamSo.
ChrisBut yeah, so I think I'd said like I definitely had we started to watch it, it was very late and I must have fallen asleep.
ChrisAnd that's probably like because it is, like you say, dark, rainy, it's not massive action.
AdamIt slides in.
AdamIt's only.
ChrisYeah, yeah.
ChrisLike so watching it this time really like it was really hard hitting and
ChrisYeah, but and the the deaths are gruesome.
ChrisLike.
Adam
ChrisThey I I guess I don't know, I mean, what else would it have compared to at the time that was this big.
Christhat and still this horrible.
AdamNot even that, I was gonna say that because a lot of people drew parallels because of obviously Silence of the Lambs.
AdamBecause that was the.
ChrisThey they mentioned that.
ChrisIs it and they they said something about Jodie Foster.
ChrisIn fact, again, there's some of the quotes that they said what was it.
AdamThe Jodie Foster quote is actually a taxi driver reference.
Chrisokay.
AdamBecause basically she was in the film Taxi Driver, and a guy called John Hinckley Jr. believed that he needed to save her and somehow that led to him attempting to kill Ronald Reagan when he was President of the United States.
AdamHe shot Ronald Reagan.
AdamObviously didn't kill him.
AdamBut yeah.
AdamAnd that was so yeah, Jodie Foster made me do it is because of him.
AdamAnd my dog made me do it is obviously Son of Sam Berkowitz, yeah.
AdamSo but yeah, there's.
AdamI think that's what I mean, I think that and I think all the way through, weirdly enough, we sort of, you know, when we've had a lot of films where it's like, for example, Scream, where people know they're in a horror movie and things like that.
LeeYeah.
AdamWhereas with this, it's actually quite a nice throwback of someone who he thinks he's in a Bruce Willis movie.
AdamHe thinks he's in Die Hard.
AdamAnd it's like he keeps like at the start, Ladies and gentlemen, we got ourselves a homicide and Somerset and the pathologist just look at him like, you prick.
AdamBecause he's sort of like trying to do, I don't know, James Bond Jack Burton one liners.
AdamAnd but and you know, it's.
AdamYeah.
AdamBut it's never a really good to look an idiot, but he's he's but they also wanted to do a different opening titles.
AdamAnd originally it was gonna be there's a there is a deleted scene of right at the start was gonna be Somerset viewing a cottage he's gonna retire to, like a place in the country.
AdamAnd then the titles were gonna run over his train journey back to the city, and they ran out of budget, so they couldn't film that.
AdamSo instead, they were like, well, we've got these fucking mad bastards books, you know, and and then you get that title sequence that is really fucking iconic and really and you've got obviously you've got like Nine Inch Nails remixed by Coil over the credits of that.
AdamAnd it's just sort of like, yeah, just out of.
AdamThe fact that you ran out of budget to do a what I would argue, a fucking more boring title sequence, get that.
ChrisI was thinking it back to that, yeah, the constraints sometimes work very well.
AdamDefinitely.
AdamDefinitely.
AdamAnd but yeah, there was so.
AdamYeah, they mentioned Divine Comedy.
AdamHistory of Catholicism and murderers and murderers and madmen, I couldn't find either of those as like a specific book, frankly, modern homicide investigation, which is a subtitle of practical information for coroners, police officers and other investigators, cult in cold blood, the Truman Capote book, which is Marcus Park's favorite true crime book, I believe.
AdamNoth for us.
AdamYeah, of human bondage, Marquis de Sade.
AdamAnd let's face it.
AdamEveryone's favorite perv, the mark there he is.
AdamDirty bastard.
AdamOh, I'm assuming that that was going to be 120 Days of Sodom.
AdamAKA 101 recipes for the unwilling coprophage.
Adam
AdamYeah, that that is definitely would be appeal to John Doe.
AdamIt's like so it's like here's this book about people, you know, doing the most horrendous fucking things to prove how shit society is.
AdamAnd yeah.
AdamBut one I found really interesting though is because they mentioned Saint Thomas Aquinas, and I was like, right, I've got to look this up.
AdamAnd he was a he was a monk, he was a 13th century philosopher, and he's actually the patron saint of teachers.
ChrisWas he a philosopher?
AdamAnd basically eventually his his philosophy was adopted as the philosophy of the Roman Catholic Church. Now bearing in mind this was he was around around in the 1200s, they adopted it in 1917.
AdamSo that's how forward moving, you know, these these things are.
Adambut basically he he was the first person who tried to reconcile science with religion and like reason with faith.
Adamand he made the argument that reason, as given to humanity by God, was universal, and so intelligence isn't just for those who are of the Christian faith.
AdamGod will bestow this upon all of humanity, and so you can still learn and you can still take concepts and ideas from other cultures.
Adamthat aren't necessarily and obviously in those points, we're not just talking Christian, we're just talking about nations that are under various religions.
AdamThat's really the ruling sort of system.
AdamAnd so his example was because do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
AdamWhich obviously.
Adamwas one of Christ's teachings.
AdamYou know.
AdamBut as he pointed out, that also is pretty much the foundation of most working civilizations or working relationships or working groups.
AdamAnd so he proposed that there were two there were two laws that govern the universe.
AdamIt was natural law, which is basically everything you can understand, everything you can that has an explanation or has a reason behind it.
AdamSo for example, that was natural law.
AdamSo do unto others as you would do as you would have done unto you is natural law because that works.
AdamAnd it is a philosophy, it's a science, it's got, you know.
AdamWhereas eternal law is basically all the weird shit God does, like angels appearing to people and prophecy.
AdamBecause remember, obviously he is.
AdamHe's the 13th century.
AdamSo he split it apart and basically said, well, they both are part of the same thing and it was a real oddly enough, it's it's it was a real leap forward in the idea that oh no, we can go to these people who we don't have the same belief as.
AdamBut that doesn't mean that their belief in how to make glass or how to make Yeah.
AdamYeah, is it's not wrong just because they're they're religious in our religion.
AdamAnd yeah, so and like I say.
AdamI mean, obviously it took a few fucking centuries for them to sort of think that might have been a nice thing to put out there.
AdamBut the thing that struck me is because I was I read all this and I was quite.
AdamAnd then John Doe says God moves in mysterious ways, and he is almost saying that he is eternal law.
ChrisYeah.
AdamSo there's so where they're saying what's the reason behind it?
AdamWhy were you doing it, John?
AdamAnd he's like, well, you know, God moves in mysterious ways, he believes that because he's on God's mission, he is eternal law.
AdamAnd he is not bound by reason, and it's a really fucking fascinating sort of concept.
AdamAnd again, it's that whole thing of going.
AdamGo and do the reading, because you get a real richness out of the film.
AdamBut also not one that you need to fucking do.
ChrisYeah.
LeeIt's funny, now you say that.
LeeIt makes me wonder if the last words that Morgan Freeman delivers actually, although it's his realization of, you know, the world's a shitty place, but I will into fight for it, does that also does that therefore apply to him and to John Doe, because John Doe feels the same, the world is a shit place, and he is also willing to fight for it, but from the from the opposite direction.
AdamYeah.
LeeSo like.
LeeYeah.
LeeI didn't.
LeeI didn't think about that.
LeeIt just.
AdamAnd.
AdamIt's all sort of things.
AdamBut yeah, it's just it's almost like and actually one thing that came up because you've got he does mention about the seven.
Adamcardinal virtues, which are in opposition to the seven deadly sins.
AdamBut also some I can't remember.
AdamIt is but it's a branch of Orthodox Christianity that has eight deadly sins and despair is the eighth deadly sin, which could be, you know, which could be argued that is what he is.
AdamHe's exhibiting, he is the eighth sin is Somerset.
AdamAnd but yeah, there's I mean.
AdamI will tell you this, because this is gonna make you vomit.
LeeYeah.
AdamOh, again, fantastic moment.
AdamOh, fucking vomit and it's like.
AdamWas there any blood in it?
AdamI didn't see.
AdamNo, I'm just telling yourself out, you know.
AdamBut so obviously, the film did really well, and it one of those weird moments.
AdamYou know when it's like, that was a really good song.
AdamThat got to number one.
AdamHow the fuck did that happen?
AdamHow did you fuckers get this?
AdamAfter all this time.
Adambut yeah, so New Line Cinema, the distributor wanted to to and again, let's face it, they're not afraid of the fucking sequel, are they?
AdamSo they wanted to do a sequel called eight.
AdamThis was 2002.
AdamSo we're talking like seven years after the fucking first time round.
AdamBut they.
AdamThey'd got a spec script called Solice.
AdamAnd they adapted it to be eight, the sequel to seven, in which where are we?
AdamSomerset has developed psychic powers and is pursuing a similarly psychic killer.
Chris
AdamAnd basically it fell through when everyone involved with seven just said, fuck off.
AdamI'm not doing that, that sounds like bullshit.
AdamIn fact, the direct quote from David Fincher was.
AdamI would be less interested in that than I would in having cigarettes put out in my eyes.
AdamAnd
AdamBut Solice was eventually filmed as Solice with Anthony Hopkins as the psychic detective.
AdamAnd Colin Farrell as the killer, and none of us have seen it or heard of it.
LeeI'm writing it down.
LeeWhen you were saying it, I was like, that is an absolute travesty, would I watch it?
Lee100%.
AdamOh, yeah, that's the thing, that's what sickens me about is I know I would have been watching it.
LeeI'd be watching that.
LeeAbsolutely.
LeeIt's gonna be dreadful.
AdamBut it's it's the sheer interest of that point, isn't it?
LeeYeah.
LeeExactly.
AdamYou know.
LeeIt's.
LeeI mean.
LeeLook at Troll.
LeeTroll and Troll 2.
AdamThat's very good.
AdamThat's good.
LeeNothing whatsoever to do with it, second one's so much better than the first, I mean, I don't think it's gonna be better than seven.
LeeLet's not.
AdamIf it is, please tell me, because then I can get a whole new obsession.
LeeNo.
LeeNo.
Adamobviously.
AdamI've got to mention the end music, Hearts Filthy Lesson by David Bowie.
ChrisOh.
LeeOh.
AdamFuck me, that was that was a pure boner pop when that hit at the fucking end of that.
AdamI've just watched this amazing film, there's a bloke in it and he was and it was like fucking miserable.
AdamAnd it's.
AdamYeah, that's right.
AdamThat's what life is like, it's fucking shit, didn't Morgan, and then Bowie kicked him with fucking up, the lesson.
AdamOh.
AdamOh my God.
AdamThis is the greatest cinematic experience of all time.
LeeOh.
AdamBut.
AdamBut the weird thing is is it was that comes from Bowie's Outside album, and the concept of Outside is an art murderer.
AdamIt's a guy who makes works of art by.
Adammutilating and murdering people and displaying the a bit like Hannibal, like the TV series of Hannibal where it gets into all those sort of designs and stuff like that.
AdamSo even that's on point with the you know, thematically.
AdamDefinitely.
AdamAnd but yeah, there was so.
AdamYeah, they mentioned Divine Comedy, History of Catholicism, and murderers and murderers and madmen.
AdamI couldn't find either of those as like a specific book, frankly.
Adamlike I said, modern homicide investigation, which is a subtitle of practical information for coroners, police officers and other investigators, cult in cold blood, the Truman Capote book, which is Marcus Park's favorite true crime book, I believe.
AdamNoth for us.
AdamYeah, of human bondage, Marquis de Sade.
AdamAnd let's face it, everyone's favorite perv, the mark there he is.
AdamDirty bastard.
AdamOh, I'm assuming that that was going to be 120 Days of Sodom.
AdamAKA 101 recipes for the unwilling coprophage.
Adam
AdamCuz yeah, that that is that that definitely would be appeal to John Doe.
AdamIt's like.
AdamSo it's like.
AdamHere's this book about people, you know, doing the most horrendous fucking things to prove how shit society is.
AdamAnd yeah.
AdamBut one I found really interesting though is because they mentioned Saint Thomas Aquinas.
AdamAnd I was like, right.
AdamI've got to look this up, and he was a he was a monk, he was a 13th century philosopher, and he's actually the patron saint of teachers.
AdamAnd basically eventually his his philosophy was adopted as the philosophy of the Roman Catholic Church. Now bearing in mind this was he was around around in the 1200s, they adopted it in 1917.
AdamSo that's how forward moving, you know, these these things are.
Adambut basically he he was the first person who tried to reconcile science with religion and like reason with faith.
AdamAnd he made the argument that reason, as given to humanity by God, was universal, and so intelligence isn't just for those who are of the Christian faith.
AdamGod will bestow this upon all of humanity, and so you can still learn and you can still take concepts and ideas from other cultures.
Adamthat aren't necessarily and obviously in those points, we're not just talking Christian, we're just talking about nations that are under various religions, that's really the ruling sort of system.
AdamAnd so for his example was because do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
AdamWhich obviously was one of Christ's teachings.
AdamYou know.
AdamBut as he pointed out, that also is pretty much the foundation of most working civilizations or working relationships or working groups.
AdamAnd so he proposed that there were two there were two laws that govern the universe.
AdamIt was natural law, which is basically everything you can understand, everything you can that has an explanation or has a reason behind it.
AdamSo for example, that was natural law.
AdamSo do unto others as you would do as you would have done unto you is natural law because that works.
AdamAnd it is a philosophy, it's a science, it's got, you know.
AdamWhereas eternal law is basically all the weird shit God does, like angels appearing to people and prophecy.
AdamBecause remember, obviously he is.
AdamHe's the 13th century.
AdamSo he split it apart and basically said, well, they both are part of the same thing and it was a real oddly enough, it's it's it was a real leap forward in the idea that oh no, we can go to these people who we don't have the same belief as.
AdamBut that doesn't mean that their belief in how to make glass or how to make Yeah.
AdamYeah, is it's not wrong just because they're they're religious in our religion.
AdamAnd yeah, so and like I say, I mean, obviously it took a few fucking centuries for them to sort of think that might have been a nice thing to put out there.
AdamBut the thing that struck me is because I was I read all this and I was quite.
AdamAnd then John Doe says God moves in mysterious ways, and he is almost saying that he is eternal law.
AdamSo there's so where they're saying what's the reason behind it, why were you doing it, John?
AdamAnd he's like, well, you know, God moves in mysterious ways, he believes that because he's on God's mission, he is eternal law.
AdamAnd he is not bound by reason, and it's a really fucking fascinating sort of concept.
AdamAnd again, it's that whole thing of.
AdamGo and do the reading, because you get a real richness out of the film.
AdamBut also not one that you need to fucking do.
LeeNo.
LeeYeah, exactly.
AdamThis is when it's done well, yeah.
LeeYeah, exactly, this is one of those films where the deeper you delve into it, the better it becomes almost.
LeeBecause there's so much that are almost throw away lines that you would just accept.
LeeBut when you actually, you know, as you say, do the research and look into it, or just take the time to think about it.
LeeYou know, like you were saying, you know, a lot of what John Doe is saying to some degree, although you obviously don't agree with the way he's going about it.
LeeA lot of the things he's saying, you're like, well, I can kind of see why someone who is unhinged would would latch onto these things and see it that way.
LeeAnd it's so well.
LeeIt's so well thought out, it's such a fantastic script.
AdamIt's it's a presentation of how ideas are dangerous.
AdamYeah, really.
AdamYou know.
LeeAnd.
LeeAnd I actually I don't think I appreciate it at the time.
LeeAnd I'm so glad that you chose it, Adam, because I'd like I, as I say.
LeeIt's been so many years since I've seen it, and yeah, Lady Jennifer and I watched it again in the week.
LeeAnd we're just like, holy shit, that's so much darker, so much deeper and so much better than I'd ever remembered it being.
LeeEven on a ship print, so yeah, good call, and happy birthday.
AdamThank you.
ChrisHappy birthday.
LeeThank you.
LeeAn amazing choice.
LeeYeah, I'm absolutely blown away with that.
Leeyeah, and I was just absolutely blown away by it, and it's gonna be a regular rewatch for me.
LeeI think I'm definitely gonna become a film I watch far more regularly because it's just got so much to it.
LeeAnd it's just such a beautiful film to look at.
Lee
AdamOh, that's fucking.
AdamYeah, brilliant, man.
AdamI was like.
ChrisI think also we should all read the books.
ChrisEventually.
AdamWell, I've I've read Paradise Lost, but I admit I was on speed.
LeeOh.
AdamSo I I I sort of knew I sort of knew what I mean.
AdamI've I've Well, I was gonna say I've read The Divine Comedy, no, I haven't.
AdamI've listened to the radio adaptation with John.
AdamSo that counts.
LeeOh.
LeeOkay.
Leeso for our next episode, are we gonna be doing what we've been watching?
Leedo we wanna give people a chance, because our next episode after that is a Blu-ray which is coming out on pre-release.
LeeIt well, it's it's on pre-release now.
LeeBut it's not coming out.
LeeSo do we wanna give people the heads up so they get the opportunity to go and pre-order it if they like to follow us?
AdamYeah.
AdamYeah.
LeeYeah.
LeeExcellent.
LeeRight.
LeeSo, following our trip to Horror on Sea and seeing eating Miss Campbell, which very much enjoyed.
Leewe are going to be covering after what we've been watching.
LeeSo in one month's time, we are going to be covering my Bloody Banjo.
AdamYes.
LeeYeah, which we said was the prequel to Eating Miss Campbell.
Leeyeah, and it's it's out on pre-release on Blu-ray.
LeeSo go and get it and yeah.
LeeIt it's it's the next film we're gonna cover, and I'm guessing a bit like eating Miss Campbell.
LeeIt's gonna be really fun and really exciting and really gory and fucking ludicrous.
AdamYes.
LeeSo go and get it because I think it's gonna be one of those films that you you're gonna want to have seen it before we discuss it.
AdamYeah, you could be.
AdamRight.
AdamYeah.
LeeYeah.
LeeSo we'll do it that.
LeeSo we'll do Class of Nuke 'Em High, then we'll do my Bloody Banjo, just so that you've got time to pre-order, get your Blu-ray and watch it before we cover it.
LeeSo get out there and get that.
Leeget Class of Nuke 'Em High because That's I believe streaming on Shutter.
AdamOh, is it really?
AdamAt the moment, yes.
LeeOh, excellent.
LeeRight, then I won't have to watch my again my terrible DVD version, which I bought for three quid about 20 years ago.
AdamThat is probably worth about like 100 quid now.
LeeOh, really?
AdamYeah, to get.
AdamA lot of the stuff is now.
LeeOh, I've got I I say I've got.
LeeIt doesn't belong to me, but in the I have got Toxic Avenger 2 on VHS that belongs to Dr. Dean, my brother.
AdamHe's not a real doctor.
LeeHe's.
LeeYeah, so.
LeeHe's.
LeeDon't ask him for advice.
AdamHe's unsolicited, but he will give it.
LeeBut don't.
LeeDon't fucking listen.
LeeAnyway, thanks ever so much for listening, happy birthday to Adam.
LeeCheers.
AdamCheers.
LeeAn amazing choice.
LeeYeah, absolutely blown away with that.
Leeyeah, and we will see you all.
LeeIn a fortnight's time to let you know what we've been watching.
LeeThanks very much.
LeeGood night.
AdamGood night.
