Seven

0:22 Lee Good evening and welcome to Horror.

0:24 Lee I'm Lee.

0:25 Chris I'm Chris.

0:26 Adam I'm Adam.

0:27 Lee And we are here for Adam's birthday choice and and the concluding part of Crazy Bastard month.

0:36 Lee we are here covering Seven.

0:39 Chris What a celebration we're having.

0:41 Adam Yes.

0:44 Lee It's it's all for you, Chris. He was like, I'm gonna make my wife's birthday really fucking miserable.

0:50 Chris To be fair.

0:52 Adam Yeah, I think he might have had that in mind.

0:55 Lee There will be spoilers and there will be swearing, a little bit late for that, but you you know the score.

0:59 Lee You've been here before, it's fine. so, yeah, for a very very dark morose sort of film, as you just showed us, Adam, there's some pretty good quotes in here.

1:42 Adam So, yeah, for a very, very dark, morose sort of film, as you just showed us, Adam, there's some pretty good quotes in here.

1:51 Adam Oh, but the thing I forgot is cuz this is, I mean, I was obsessed with Seven when it first came out. I think I saw it at the cinema at least three times. Then I had then I had it on video, I had it on DVD, then the DVD, yeah, so so what what year was you?

2:03 Chris Really?

2:15 Chris It's like 9456.

2:19 Adam It's it's an interesting one, it's it's 95 but it was released over here in January 96.

2:26 Chris Okay, but so that was probably a fairly early DVD, wasn't it? When did DVDs come out?

2:32 Adam Yeah, it was, well, because that was the thing, so I got it on video, the DVD was probably about 98.

2:37 Chris okay.

2:38 Adam Around the it was DVDs really took off with The Matrix.

2:40 Adam So around yeah, 98, 99, I think.

2:43 Chris Yeah, yeah.

2:45 Adam and yeah, so I bought I I'd got it on video, I bought it on DVD, but it was like an original DVD where it's like interactive menus apparently count as a fucking special feature. And then the fuckers about three years later released like a double disc with commentaries and fuck it, pretty much the interesting thing is I've got it I I've I've accidentally inherited it on Blu-ray somehow, which is weird, it just turned up on Blu-ray, and I'm like, oh, well, I'm definitely it was like a batch of Blu-rays and they were like, oh, if you want anything out of them just take it. And I was like, well, I'll keep Seven.

3:39 Chris Yeah, yeah.

3:48 Chris Deluxe.

3:58 Chris

4:02 Lee Yeah.

4:09 Adam So, you know, that definitely I'll because I'll watch it again.

4:14 Adam And yeah, there's not the that double disc is pretty much what's on the Blu-ray, there's no they really fucking did a massive job on it when they sort of released it on the special edition DVD.

4:26 Lee But

4:27 Lee but you're saying that I actually watched it again, because it was when it came out on the special deluxe double DVD, it was one of the first DVDs that Jennifer ever bought, and that was what I watched it on for this evening, and I can tell you, it looks like Dog Todd, it's fucking awful. Yeah, and it sounds terrible as well. It's such a and it's almost VHS quality. It's like they've just put the VHS on a disc. It's absolutely diabolical.

4:53 Chris Does it?

4:53 Adam Oh, well, well, I mean, I I'll be I'll have to say the fucking Blu-ray, yes, they've really it it's definitely the best I've ever seen it.

5:03 Adam I mean, it's not quite when you we bought the DVD of Withnail & I after watching my shitty video and you actually realized that the opening sequence is in daylight and he's wearing a light blue jumper, not a dark fucking green one.

5:39 Chris Yeah.

5:40 Adam So, you know, it was but yeah, the the Blu-ray looks really fucking nice. And and actually that was one of the things that that came up that I and like I say, I was obsessed with the film, so a lot of sort of stuff notes and things that I took about it were actually me remembering stuff I'd read at the time when I was sort of obsessed over it and everything.

6:01 Adam And for example, you're saying about like the trouble is with the colors is that David Fincher want basically, I think he's he described it as one of the make a black and white film in color.

6:12 Chris Yeah, that's interesting.

6:17 Adam And and obviously it's very like sort of film noir, sort of 40s detective, almost German expressionism sort of There's a lot of really dark contrast in it and so.

6:27 Chris I guess he's he's kind of done a good job of turning that into something that is accessible still to I would imagine a lot of people.

6:36 Adam Oh, definitely. I don't think he hasn't done it to the detriment of it being an entertainment entertaining film, it doesn't there's not enough to take you out of it.

6:52 Adam But even when they were processing the film, they did a thing that was like called bleach bypass or silver retention or something like that. And basically celluloid film when you develop it, the blacks sort of wash out because they don't keep silver nitrate in the chemical composition of it, it gets like washed out.

7:24 Adam But they actually had copies of it done with this silver retention thing, so if you saw that version, and I think that's what they've mastered like the latest versions of.

7:34 Adam Is yeah, everything's like like it's none more black is you know, there are there are sort of parts of that where it's like it's like looking into an abyss, you know, it's not even sort of yeah.

7:52 Chris Not not just metaphorically.

7:54 Adam Yeah, it's it's it's literal absence.

7:58 Adam It's really fucking sort of odd.

8:03 Adam But yeah, that and so there was also stuff like that, he obviously had that sort of clear vision for it.

8:11 Adam the one thing I got watching it, probably more than anything was

8:16 Adam Holy shit, they really ripped this off for The Dark Knight.

8:22 Adam Particularly the ends where it's a lot more all the action bits really feel like later Batman films.

8:32 Lee Yeah.

8:33 Adam And I think much in the same way that Heat is definitely an influence on Christopher Nolan Batman films.

8:41 Adam but yeah, definitely, I think Seven's and also so much of it is just, oh yeah, I remember the 90s because this film basically meant that every serial serial killer film or crime film afterwards for the next five years had wobbly, scribbled credit sequences and those little sort of things like that.

8:59 Lee It's funny, watching it I was like, oh, this does remind me of my favorite music video of all time.

9:06 Lee And then I looked and I was like, oh, yeah, David Fincher had made that music video around this time.

9:11 Lee So that explains exactly why.

9:13 Chris Oh, yeah.

9:14 Adam Oh, Judas.

9:15 Lee The video for Judith by A Perfect Circle, which is just phenomenal and looks exactly like this movie.

9:21 Adam Yeah.

9:22 Adam It really does.

9:23 Lee And it's got to be said, although I said it looks like absolute shit on DVD, it works for this film, because it's grainy and it's horrible. This film is just so miserable.

9:33 Chris Yeah.

9:34 Lee I mean, and it it's funny, the other thing is I mean, this is 100% a horror movie through and through, but it is a it is a a police procedural effectively.

9:43 Chris Yeah.

9:43 Chris So.

9:44 Chris So that's that's what I was surprised about how much it is about and also their relationship.

9:52 Chris So them them as the the veteran detective

9:55 Chris and the rookie, and how they play off each other, which I thought Brad Pitt and Morgan Freeman worked, and it it's funny, I mean, my head, I I was trying to imagine how it would work before watching it.

10:03 Chris And I really did like the way they both were, but yeah, just it it definitely is so much about detective side of it, which I wasn't really expecting that.

10:11 Lee Well, they're two such completely different actors, which I think is why it works perfectly, because when you put them in as two people who work together, it doesn't doesn't quite work, as you know, as it doesn't when you just chucked in with somebody and you have to work with them all day every day.

10:28 Chris Yeah.

10:29 Chris How they yeah.

10:36 Lee and of course, because they're both Titans, they they just make it not work, but work at the same time.

10:45 Lee Like it's

10:46 Chris Yeah.

10:46 Chris It especially stood out when they have the scene where his wife, Mill's wife, which I forgotten her name, she invites.

10:58 Adam Tracy.

11:00 Chris Tracy, yeah, and she invites Somerset round, and it's like then the change and how it's that yeah, just really made it stand out.

11:10 Adam See, that's the weird thing.

11:11 Adam I mean, it's it starts grim, it starts on a fucking body.

11:14 Chris Yeah.

11:15 Adam And admittedly not one of the murders, but it starts on a body, so you're already there.

11:19 Adam And you but that you you do get that feeling of it sort of softens you up a bit because you do get engaged by other aspects.

11:32 Chris Yeah.

11:33 Adam Like I say, you've got like the the there's a certain thing, the the people who don't give a shit are funny because of not giving a shit, like the cops who it's just a job and they're not bothered.

11:43 Adam And like when he's saying to why why don't you ask why are you asking whether the kid saw it, who cares?

11:47 Adam You know what I mean? And there's it's almost humorously apathetic and sort of but actually it sort of comes to the heart of it of being

11:51 Chris Yeah.

11:52 Chris I think.

11:54 Adam neglect and negligence.

11:57 Chris Yeah, is that yeah.

11:58 Chris It does, that really does come across.

12:00 Chris Like the whole city is just this horrible place.

12:05 Adam

12:05 Adam Well, it's that that's the other thing as well.

12:09 Adam It's basically Gotham without Batman.

12:11 Chris Yeah, okay.

12:12 Adam It's got a Joker and this is what happens if Batman's not around because there's no one

12:18 Chris Yeah.

12:18 Adam fucking enough to work against it in a way.

12:22 Lee But it is it's that constant rain as well, which is exactly just makes it just it makes everything feel grimy and unpleasant and just horrible to be in.

12:30 Adam Yeah.

12:31 Adam And that

12:31 Adam And the weirdest thing is with that, the rain, that was all because they only had Brad Pitt for I think a week.

12:40 Adam And they thought if the weather turns, we're fucked.

12:45 Adam So they just had it raining all the time in case of bad weather.

12:50 Lee Oh.

12:52 Adam Because it was like, right, if if if we film in brilliant sunshine and we make it rain, fine, but if we're filming if if we want it brilliant sunshine and it starts raining, we're fucked.

13:00 Adam So, yeah, they just decided that that was.

13:02 Adam I mean, it it definitely helps with the I don't think it's just purely that.

13:05 Adam It definitely does help with the sort of.

13:06 Chris I'm trying to figure.

13:07 Chris Is there only time when it changes the end scene when they're driving out?

13:11 Lee Yeah.

13:12 Chris That sort of adds something.

13:14 Adam Curiously.

13:14 Adam Someone pointed out the first time you see the sun in the film is when John Doe turns up.

13:21 Chris

13:23 Adam And and I suddenly I was suddenly struck by that because it was like something I hadn't seen online, but obviously all the stuff in there like paradise lost, like John Milton and the bit where it says, oh, if we meet him.

13:32 Adam And he is actually the devil himself, then we might be, you know, that sort of line.

13:38 Adam But then the devil turns up and Lucifer, the bringer of light.

13:42 Adam So it's almost like he turns up and then it's sunlit.

13:47 Adam But that's not actually a good thing in this circumstance, you know.

13:52 Adam But it's interesting, because the the the one thing I I always found is that they do like the second half, the last third rather, like when John Doe turns up, that's the only time they really get on is when a they both real they both agree he's up to something.

14:15 Chris

14:16 Adam And but also when they're sitting there when they're like shaving their chests for the to put the wire taps on.

14:25 Adam And just yeah, that's the only time you see them really sort of like just knock about and.

14:30 Lee Yeah, they really connect for the first time after an hour and a half of just being vaguely horrible, yeah.

14:39 Adam Yeah.

14:39 Chris I was like it's I was saying it is believable because this is quite a case for both of them to be on as a retiring and as his first case.

14:55 Adam Yeah.

14:55 Adam That's that's another thing, I always I always forget that R Lee Ermey from Full Metal Jacket

15:03 Adam is the police chief in this.

15:07 Adam And he's just fucking again, there's another fantastically funny bit where he's like, when he answers the phone, this is not even my desk.

15:13 Adam And then he just slams the phone down.

15:17 Adam And they pull these things in and then roughly around the time of lust, because that is fucking vile.

15:26 Adam Like the whole concept of that killing is so horrible.

15:32 Adam That's kind of the turn into, oh, this is actually quite fucking

15:37 Adam nasty.

15:39 Adam

15:40 Adam You know, that's the point where it's like, oh no, this is, well, as they say, it isn't going to end well.

15:48 Lee Yeah.

15:49 Adam And it doesn't.

15:52 Adam But yeah, it's

15:54 Adam Yeah, just and like you say.

15:57 Adam The the thing I've always, this is the story I heard like years ago.

16:03 Adam Basically what happened was is that obviously there's I'll have to Andrew Kevin Walker, who's the scriptwriter who also

16:12 Adam I think he did like a few, I think he did Sleepy Hollow.

16:17 Adam but he's he's oh and he definitely did the Wolfman, the Benicio Del Toro version.

16:25 Lee Do you know what? I don't think I've watched that again since we saw it at Leicester Square on its opening weekend.

16:32 Adam But yeah, and he basically he'd written the script and it was as the ending was as you see.

16:40 Adam Like in the film, or pretty much as you see in the film.

16:43 Adam And basically he was touting the script around and lots of people were like, well, it's a really good script, but we're not going to be able to sell it with that ending.

16:54 Adam So he revised the script as he was going and there were different versions flying around.

16:57 Adam Brad Pitt got sent it to like, you know, to see if he was interested.

17:04 Adam Accidentally got sent the original version.

17:07 Chris

17:08 Adam And basically put his foot down and said, right, like it got on bold, then they said, oh, well, there's been a cock up, we've got and basically the ending was going to be they rescue like they get to his flat just as John Doe's breaking in and they rescue Tracy.

17:25 Adam And, you know, and it's an an uplifting version of it, obviously.

17:30 Adam And yeah, Brad Pitt basically said, well, I ain't doing the film unless we do the script I read.

17:36 Adam Because that's the fucking good film.

17:37 Lee Yeah.

17:38 Lee He's

17:38 Lee absolutely right.

17:40 Lee Like if she'd got rescued at the end, I don't think it would have been the massive kicking the stomach that everyone gets when they first see it.

17:45 Lee And in my mind, you see her head in this box, when I watched it back, and I was like, oh, no, you just see a cardboard box and they tell you what's in it, you never in my mind, I was convinced we'd seen it.

17:56 Chris Yeah.

17:56 Chris I can't believe.

17:57 Adam There is a weird.

17:58 Adam There is a weird little thing though, is and it's weird because of obviously David Fincher going on to do Fight Club.

18:06 Adam I there's a just at the end, just before, I think it's actually seven minutes before the end of the film is the timing of it.

18:18 Adam But basically, there is a subliminal cut of Gwyneth Paltrow's face.

18:33 Lee Oh, really?

18:34 Adam Yeah, and it's not

18:35 Adam it's not her beheaded or anything else like that, it's literally just a close-up of her face.

18:42 Adam And they flash it just at the point where Mills works out what's in when he says her lovely head.

18:49 Adam And he's like trying to control himself.

18:54 Lee Yeah.

18:54 Adam And they flash it in at that point.

18:56 Adam So kind of you do see it.

18:58 Chris You do.

18:59 Adam But it's on on a pretty subconscious level, as it were.

19:03 Adam And yeah.

19:06 Lee I've got to say, like I I went through a phase of being as I I think I said it on the interview with the vampire episode of being like Brad Pitt is not a great actor.

19:17 Lee And I don't know why, like he's a pretty boy and that's why he gets all these roles.

19:22 Lee And I think the reason is, he did about three films in a short period where he played effectively the same kind of character, and it was this and Fight Club, and 12 Monkeys.

19:32 Adam Yes.

19:33 Lee And like he's got very similar mannerisms in all of them, and I think that's kind of why I wrote him off to some degree.

19:40 Lee but yeah, obviously like when you look at his whole broad sheet of work now,

19:45 Lee it's incredible when you can see how diverse he is, the film he did last year, Bullet Train.

19:52 Adam Oh yes.

19:53 Lee Oh, that was just absolutely spectacular, I can't wait to rewatch that, it was fantastic.

19:58 Lee but yeah, I think that's what it was, like he did a few films in a short period where he he acted too similarly, like he didn't show his full range, which we we now know he's got.

20:09 Lee And if you look back at his previous films, but I think a lot of the stuff he did before wasn't things I'd have watched.

20:15 Lee So the start that he did within my field of interest was all a bit similar.

20:22 Lee And I was like, he's just another person who like he's all right, but he just always plays the same.

20:28 Chris It's just a Tom Cruise.

20:30 Lee Yeah, yeah.

20:30 Lee Basically, and then but yeah, but now going back to I was like, but it but it nails it.

20:35 Chris Yes.

20:35 Chris It does.

20:36 Chris Yeah, yeah.

20:37 Lee In this character.

20:38 Lee He's exactly right.

20:39 Lee Like that.

20:39 Chris I I was trying to decide which films it was going to be that you'd say the three.

20:41 Chris But I I loved him in 12 Monkeys and Fight Club and.

20:44 Adam Yeah.

20:45 Adam Well, 12 Monkeys he did immediately after this, that's what he had to that's why they only had him for seven days because he was going to be filming in 12 Monkeys.

20:52 Adam And yeah, and obviously Fight Club, I think like three years afterwards, because you've got because they because obviously that's David Fincher as well and you've got the game with Michael Douglas in the middle of it.

21:02 Chris Okay.

21:03 Adam Because they.

21:04 Chris So I I had a long.

21:06 Adam That is good.

21:07 Adam Although it used to be, there used to be that thing where people said that David Fincher was like Star Trek movies, all the even numbered ones were good.

21:16 Adam Right.

21:17 Adam Which sort of worked up until the point where it was like, so Benjamin Button counted as a crap one, and yeah, and then the next film was The Social Network and it was like, I'd rather cut my genitals off with a rusty knife than watch anything to do with fucking.

21:30 Chris Was like.

21:31 Adam I was like, this cannot be fascinating.

21:34 Chris Although I haven't haven't watched it yet.

21:35 Adam You got the man who punished the world through seven deadly.

21:39 Adam And now it's this is the bloke who invented Facebook.

21:43 Adam Fuck me, actually have sequences in this.

21:45 Chris Yeah, yeah.

21:47 Chris I'm I'm assuming he doesn't show him in a good light.

21:52 Adam I don't know, I genuinely do not know.

21:55 Adam I could not bring myself to watch it.

21:58 Lee No, nor me.

22:00 Lee Mind you, saying that, I've not seen Benjamin Button either, so.

22:03 Adam Benjamin Button was just a bit sort of.

22:06 Adam It was like, imagine if I think the best it reminded me a bit of like if Guillermo Del Toro was a bit too sentimental.

22:13 Lee Yeah.

22:15 Adam You know.

22:16 Adam Sort of like like a rich box of chocolates, you know.

22:19 Adam So I feel a bit sick now.

22:25 Adam But but actually in thinking but this was something I hadn't realized as well, but now all four principal cast members are Oscar winners.

22:35 Lee Yeah.

22:36 Adam And Kevin Spacey's won twice.

22:38 Adam He won for Usual Suspects and American Beauty.

22:42 Adam So he won like best actor and best.

22:44 Adam And actually Brad Pitt was the last of them to get an Oscar, he got it for Once Upon a Time in Hollywood.

22:50 Chris

22:51 Chris Which is another film that you really liked.

22:53 Lee That that is an amazing.

22:55 Adam That helped to cement Brad Pitt as as a good actor too.

22:58 Lee Holy kick ass.

23:00 Adam The weirdest thing is Brad Pitt really plays an idiot well.

23:04 Chris Yeah.

23:05 Adam Like Mills is not Mills is well meaning but not the smartest guy.

23:11 Adam And like Burn After Reading.

23:14 Lee Oh.

23:15 Adam He is you know, he is just a total goon in that.

23:19 Adam You know, he's just.

23:20 Lee He is hilarious in that.

23:22 Lee Like he is one of the crowning things in that film.

23:25 Lee He just absolutely.

23:26 Adam But he does he does it's weird that you can that because it's not because it's never a a sort of like you say, you what's the what was the term, Claire? Distractingly handsome which was and yeah, and so but it's never a really good to look an idiot, but he's he's

23:26 Unknown Distractingly handsome.

23:34 Lee That was.

23:34 Lee That was why.

23:39 Adam he can do it and channel it well.

23:41 Adam And you know, it's.

23:42 Adam You know, he's not there thinking I'm gonna look I'm gonna look bad.

23:46 Adam You know, he's he's acting.

23:48 Adam So.

23:49 Lee Absolutely, and Claire's absolutely right, because that was the reason he didn't get his break in the Elvira movie, wasn't it?

23:55 Lee He turned up for the audition as one of the teenagers in the Elvira movie.

24:00 Lee and yeah, Cassandra Patterson said, look, you can't have this kid here, and then I go for the other guy, because there's no way you wouldn't go for Brad Pitt, so you'll have to cast somebody else, because.

24:12 Adam Yeah, because then it gets faintly as well, because he's a high school.

24:17 Lee that as well.

24:18 Lee

24:21 Lee you're talking about supporting cast.

24:23 Lee I'd never noticed before, I say, I've not watched this film in probably 15 years, John C. McGinley in this as the head of the SWAT team.

24:35 Adam Yeah, California.

24:36 Lee Yeah, well, he's I was like, hang on a fucking minute, I definitely I didn't even see his face.

24:43 Lee I just knew the voice straight away, and I was like, that's definitely him.

24:46 Lee And I went and Googled it, and I was like, shit, yeah, it is.

24:48 Lee And he's in it a few times, you know.

24:51 Adam Yeah, I'd completely I I totally forgot that it was him, I'd never noticed it was him before, and I think weirdly enough, it was probably the connections that I would have made were after my Seven obsession or whatever like that.

25:00 Adam but yeah, he's fucking great in it.

25:02 Adam Again.

25:03 Adam Not afraid to look an idiot.

25:05 Adam Because, you know, this is the thing, you do realize that the police are fairly inept.

25:11 Adam Yeah.

25:12 Adam In that I mean, basically because their best detective just has given up.

25:18 Adam And yeah, everyone else is a fucking tithead, is.

25:23 Lee Yeah.

25:26 Lee But yeah, and Morgan Freeman obviously is such an outstanding actor.

25:31 Lee but he does, he plays the character in this as someone, as you say, who's given up.

25:36 Lee And he's just like.

25:38 Lee I I I can't do this, like I I can't make enough of a difference to ruin my life to not have enough of an effect.

25:42 Chris Yeah, yeah.

25:47 Lee And it's really he just plays it so solidly, it's Yeah.

25:52 Adam Yeah.

25:53 Lee absolutely incredible.

25:54 Chris So what I was trying to work out, it's and it'd be kind of good to go through.

25:58 Chris The seven sins again, just to remember them.

26:02 Chris But so so the purpose of John Doe, like he cuz it was fascinating when they're talking in the car.

26:12 Chris And and he is explaining it, and because you start off and you sort of like, you know, you hate him.

26:18 Chris But then he's talking and he's like, there's some sense to it, there's no point would I say this is the way that you should try and bring around change.

26:25 Chris But his idea of it needs to be hard hitting.

26:30 Chris And then at the very end, the detective Somerset says something like it's a fine world and I'm gonna fight for it.

26:39 Chris And I.

26:45 Adam It's a fine world.

26:46 Adam And worth fighting for.

26:47 Chris Worth fighting for.

26:47 Chris And I'm gonna I believe the second part of it.

26:52 Chris So like what what's he mean there?

26:54 Chris Like is he's not gonna retire?

26:56 Adam I don't.

26:58 Adam Well, because there's the thing where he says where have you been, he just goes around.

27:01 Chris

27:02 Adam And you're like, oh, so you're probably not going to retire.

27:05 Lee Yeah.

27:07 Adam Because in a weird way, John Doe has shaken him out of his apathy.

27:14 Chris Yeah.

27:15 Chris Yeah.

27:15 Chris Well, that's it.

27:16 Chris So.

27:16 Adam Because he's like, well, I've got to I've got to do something if this is the result.

27:22 Chris

27:23 Adam If this is like the final of where this goes, perhaps I do need to step in.

27:30 Adam And because it's interesting because you I love there's a lot of sort of stuff that's unwritten in it.

27:35 Adam That really works well like when the police chief comes in and talks to him.

27:39 Adam And he's like saying, oh, well, look, yeah, he'll go off and do this, like after the greed and gluttony killings.

27:49 Adam And then he says, oh, yeah, the lab sent this down, yeah, it was fed to him.

27:55 Adam And it's just the way he says it as he's like, you're gonna.

27:59 Adam I know that you cannot leave this.

28:01 Chris Yeah, okay.

28:02 Adam You know.

28:04 Adam And.

28:05 Chris The way he picks it up.

28:06 Chris So so what was it?

28:07 Chris It was bits of plastic.

28:08 Adam It's shavings from under the fridge.

28:10 Lee Yeah.

28:11 Lee Where he's dragged the fridge out, and it rips bits of the Lino, he feeds him the Lino so that he knows it'll be found, and then they'll drag the fridge, because he's worried that they won't see that he's hidden it behind the fridge.

28:14 Chris Yeah.

28:18 Lee And like you say, it is it's that bating game, it's like in the other film, with that you won't you could walk away at this point.

28:25 Lee But if I just give you enough to keep you mentally challenged, you'll stick to it.

28:32 Adam

28:33 Chris And that's that's when realizing the apathy.

28:35 Chris To some degree as well, he knows that the cops won't necessarily spend the amount of time they really need to.

28:41 Adam Yeah.

28:43 Adam And I think, well, I think also, because I was reassured in a weird way, watching it back this time, of how little I just how how not much, but how to an extent I disagreed with John Doe.

28:59 Adam Or certainly certainly in his choice of victims.

29:02 Adam You know, when he says, well, they're they're, you know, when he's like arguing that they're not innocent and it's like, well, yeah, and Sloth and possibly the lawyer.

29:07 Chris But this.

29:11 Adam You know, actually the bit with the lawyer where it's like and you were both secretly thanking me for that one.

29:17 Chris Yeah.

29:18 Adam Again.

29:19 Chris That's why that that was a good dialogue.

29:20 Chris Like oh, yeah, because it was it was funny and horrible, like it was a good mixture, you know, pretty short time.

29:26 Adam And brilliantly delivered as well.

29:28 Lee It's quite a lot of what I'm sure all of us think of big face.

29:33 Chris Well, yeah.

29:33 Lee He's.

29:34 Chris I was shocked when I saw him here, I did not know he was in it at all.

29:35 Chris I was like, what, okay, that's.

29:37 Adam Again, part of his deal with coming on board was that he didn't want his name on any posters or pre-publicity.

29:45 Adam Because as he because as he said, right, you're looking for a killer, I haven't turned up for an hour, it's pretty obvious at this point, I'm the killer.

29:45 Chris Yeah.

29:45 Chris That's.

29:46 Chris Yeah.

29:54 Adam And that that makes a lot of sense.

29:58 Adam Yeah.

29:59 Adam And actually, so he's credited twice.

30:04 Adam Because when the credits roll, it's it just says Kevin Spacey as John Doe.

30:08 Adam like a continuation of the opening credits almost.

30:13 Adam And then you get the cast list and he is he's cast in order of appearance, so he's credited for at the point where he appears as the photographer.

30:21 Chris As the photographer, yeah.

30:24 Chris

30:24 Adam So.

30:26 Chris But yeah, so I think I'd said like I definitely had we started to watch it, it was very late and I must have fallen asleep.

30:34 Chris And that's probably like because it is, like you say, dark, rainy, it's not massive action.

30:40 Adam It slides in.

30:41 Adam It's only.

30:42 Chris Yeah, yeah.

30:44 Chris Like so watching it this time really like it was really hard hitting and

30:51 Chris Yeah, but and the the deaths are gruesome.

30:53 Chris Like.

30:54 Adam

30:54 Chris They I I guess I don't know, I mean, what else would it have compared to at the time that was this big.

31:00 Chris that and still this horrible.

31:04 Adam Not even that, I was gonna say that because a lot of people drew parallels because of obviously Silence of the Lambs.

31:10 Adam Because that was the.

31:11 Chris They they mentioned that.

31:12 Chris Is it and they they said something about Jodie Foster.

31:13 Chris In fact, again, there's some of the quotes that they said what was it.

31:16 Adam The Jodie Foster quote is actually a taxi driver reference.

31:21 Chris okay.

31:23 Adam Because basically she was in the film Taxi Driver, and a guy called John Hinckley Jr. believed that he needed to save her and somehow that led to him attempting to kill Ronald Reagan when he was President of the United States.

31:39 Adam He shot Ronald Reagan.

31:40 Adam Obviously didn't kill him.

31:41 Adam But yeah.

31:42 Adam And that was so yeah, Jodie Foster made me do it is because of him.

31:45 Adam And my dog made me do it is obviously Son of Sam Berkowitz, yeah.

31:54 Adam So but yeah, there's.

31:55 Adam I think that's what I mean, I think that and I think all the way through, weirdly enough, we sort of, you know, when we've had a lot of films where it's like, for example, Scream, where people know they're in a horror movie and things like that.

32:08 Lee Yeah.

32:09 Adam Whereas with this, it's actually quite a nice throwback of someone who he thinks he's in a Bruce Willis movie.

32:18 Adam He thinks he's in Die Hard.

32:21 Adam And it's like he keeps like at the start, Ladies and gentlemen, we got ourselves a homicide and Somerset and the pathologist just look at him like, you prick.

32:33 Adam Because he's sort of like trying to do, I don't know, James Bond Jack Burton one liners.

32:38 Adam And but and you know, it's.

32:41 Adam Yeah.

32:43 Adam But it's never a really good to look an idiot, but he's he's but they also wanted to do a different opening titles.

32:50 Adam And originally it was gonna be there's a there is a deleted scene of right at the start was gonna be Somerset viewing a cottage he's gonna retire to, like a place in the country.

33:00 Adam And then the titles were gonna run over his train journey back to the city, and they ran out of budget, so they couldn't film that.

33:09 Adam So instead, they were like, well, we've got these fucking mad bastards books, you know, and and then you get that title sequence that is really fucking iconic and really and you've got obviously you've got like Nine Inch Nails remixed by Coil over the credits of that.

33:20 Adam And it's just sort of like, yeah, just out of.

33:24 Adam The fact that you ran out of budget to do a what I would argue, a fucking more boring title sequence, get that.

33:31 Chris I was thinking it back to that, yeah, the constraints sometimes work very well.

33:34 Adam Definitely.

33:35 Adam Definitely.

33:36 Adam And but yeah, there was so.

33:39 Adam Yeah, they mentioned Divine Comedy.

33:42 Adam History of Catholicism and murderers and murderers and madmen, I couldn't find either of those as like a specific book, frankly, modern homicide investigation, which is a subtitle of practical information for coroners, police officers and other investigators, cult in cold blood, the Truman Capote book, which is Marcus Park's favorite true crime book, I believe.

34:05 Adam Noth for us.

34:06 Adam Yeah, of human bondage, Marquis de Sade.

34:09 Adam And let's face it.

34:10 Adam Everyone's favorite perv, the mark there he is.

34:14 Adam Dirty bastard.

34:16 Adam Oh, I'm assuming that that was going to be 120 Days of Sodom.

34:20 Adam AKA 101 recipes for the unwilling coprophage.

34:25 Adam

34:25 Adam Yeah, that that is definitely would be appeal to John Doe.

34:28 Adam It's like so it's like here's this book about people, you know, doing the most horrendous fucking things to prove how shit society is.

34:34 Adam And yeah.

34:36 Adam But one I found really interesting though is because they mentioned Saint Thomas Aquinas, and I was like, right, I've got to look this up.

34:43 Adam And he was a he was a monk, he was a 13th century philosopher, and he's actually the patron saint of teachers.

34:48 Chris Was he a philosopher?

34:53 Adam And basically eventually his his philosophy was adopted as the philosophy of the Roman Catholic Church. Now bearing in mind this was he was around around in the 1200s, they adopted it in 1917.

35:08 Adam So that's how forward moving, you know, these these things are.

35:16 Adam but basically he he was the first person who tried to reconcile science with religion and like reason with faith.

35:33 Adam and he made the argument that reason, as given to humanity by God, was universal, and so intelligence isn't just for those who are of the Christian faith.

35:45 Adam God will bestow this upon all of humanity, and so you can still learn and you can still take concepts and ideas from other cultures.

35:54 Adam that aren't necessarily and obviously in those points, we're not just talking Christian, we're just talking about nations that are under various religions.

36:05 Adam That's really the ruling sort of system.

36:08 Adam And so his example was because do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

36:13 Adam Which obviously.

36:15 Adam was one of Christ's teachings.

36:17 Adam You know.

36:18 Adam But as he pointed out, that also is pretty much the foundation of most working civilizations or working relationships or working groups.

36:25 Adam And so he proposed that there were two there were two laws that govern the universe.

36:27 Adam It was natural law, which is basically everything you can understand, everything you can that has an explanation or has a reason behind it.

36:36 Adam So for example, that was natural law.

36:41 Adam So do unto others as you would do as you would have done unto you is natural law because that works.

36:46 Adam And it is a philosophy, it's a science, it's got, you know.

36:51 Adam Whereas eternal law is basically all the weird shit God does, like angels appearing to people and prophecy.

37:03 Adam Because remember, obviously he is.

37:04 Adam He's the 13th century.

37:07 Adam So he split it apart and basically said, well, they both are part of the same thing and it was a real oddly enough, it's it's it was a real leap forward in the idea that oh no, we can go to these people who we don't have the same belief as.

37:16 Adam But that doesn't mean that their belief in how to make glass or how to make Yeah.

37:24 Adam Yeah, is it's not wrong just because they're they're religious in our religion.

37:33 Adam And yeah, so and like I say.

37:35 Adam I mean, obviously it took a few fucking centuries for them to sort of think that might have been a nice thing to put out there.

37:39 Adam But the thing that struck me is because I was I read all this and I was quite.

37:42 Adam And then John Doe says God moves in mysterious ways, and he is almost saying that he is eternal law.

37:49 Chris Yeah.

37:50 Adam So there's so where they're saying what's the reason behind it?

37:53 Adam Why were you doing it, John?

37:55 Adam And he's like, well, you know, God moves in mysterious ways, he believes that because he's on God's mission, he is eternal law.

38:02 Adam And he is not bound by reason, and it's a really fucking fascinating sort of concept.

38:09 Adam And again, it's that whole thing of going.

38:12 Adam Go and do the reading, because you get a real richness out of the film.

38:17 Adam But also not one that you need to fucking do.

38:22 Chris Yeah.

38:23 Lee It's funny, now you say that.

38:25 Lee It makes me wonder if the last words that Morgan Freeman delivers actually, although it's his realization of, you know, the world's a shitty place, but I will into fight for it, does that also does that therefore apply to him and to John Doe, because John Doe feels the same, the world is a shit place, and he is also willing to fight for it, but from the from the opposite direction.

38:49 Adam Yeah.

38:50 Lee So like.

38:51 Lee Yeah.

38:52 Lee I didn't.

38:52 Lee I didn't think about that.

38:53 Lee It just.

38:54 Adam And.

38:55 Adam It's all sort of things.

38:56 Adam But yeah, it's just it's almost like and actually one thing that came up because you've got he does mention about the seven.

39:02 Adam cardinal virtues, which are in opposition to the seven deadly sins.

39:09 Adam But also some I can't remember.

39:11 Adam It is but it's a branch of Orthodox Christianity that has eight deadly sins and despair is the eighth deadly sin, which could be, you know, which could be argued that is what he is.

39:22 Adam He's exhibiting, he is the eighth sin is Somerset.

39:28 Adam And but yeah, there's I mean.

39:30 Adam I will tell you this, because this is gonna make you vomit.

39:32 Lee Yeah.

39:33 Adam Oh, again, fantastic moment.

39:37 Adam Oh, fucking vomit and it's like.

39:40 Adam Was there any blood in it?

39:42 Adam I didn't see.

39:43 Adam No, I'm just telling yourself out, you know.

39:46 Adam But so obviously, the film did really well, and it one of those weird moments.

39:52 Adam You know when it's like, that was a really good song.

39:54 Adam That got to number one.

39:55 Adam How the fuck did that happen?

39:57 Adam How did you fuckers get this?

39:59 Adam After all this time.

40:00 Adam but yeah, so New Line Cinema, the distributor wanted to to and again, let's face it, they're not afraid of the fucking sequel, are they?

40:10 Adam So they wanted to do a sequel called eight.

40:13 Adam This was 2002.

40:15 Adam So we're talking like seven years after the fucking first time round.

40:19 Adam But they.

40:20 Adam They'd got a spec script called Solice.

40:25 Adam And they adapted it to be eight, the sequel to seven, in which where are we?

40:30 Adam Somerset has developed psychic powers and is pursuing a similarly psychic killer.

40:40 Chris

40:41 Adam And basically it fell through when everyone involved with seven just said, fuck off.

40:47 Adam I'm not doing that, that sounds like bullshit.

40:51 Adam In fact, the direct quote from David Fincher was.

40:54 Adam I would be less interested in that than I would in having cigarettes put out in my eyes.

40:59 Adam And

41:01 Adam But Solice was eventually filmed as Solice with Anthony Hopkins as the psychic detective.

41:05 Adam And Colin Farrell as the killer, and none of us have seen it or heard of it.

41:10 Lee I'm writing it down.

41:11 Lee When you were saying it, I was like, that is an absolute travesty, would I watch it?

41:14 Lee 100%.

41:16 Adam Oh, yeah, that's the thing, that's what sickens me about is I know I would have been watching it.

41:19 Lee I'd be watching that.

41:21 Lee Absolutely.

41:22 Lee It's gonna be dreadful.

41:24 Adam But it's it's the sheer interest of that point, isn't it?

41:28 Lee Yeah.

41:28 Lee Exactly.

41:29 Adam You know.

41:29 Lee It's.

41:30 Lee I mean.

41:31 Lee Look at Troll.

41:32 Lee Troll and Troll 2.

41:35 Adam That's very good.

41:35 Adam That's good.

41:36 Lee Nothing whatsoever to do with it, second one's so much better than the first, I mean, I don't think it's gonna be better than seven.

41:41 Lee Let's not.

41:44 Adam If it is, please tell me, because then I can get a whole new obsession.

41:47 Lee No.

41:48 Lee No.

41:49 Adam obviously.

41:50 Adam I've got to mention the end music, Hearts Filthy Lesson by David Bowie.

41:56 Chris Oh.

41:56 Lee Oh.

41:57 Adam Fuck me, that was that was a pure boner pop when that hit at the fucking end of that.

42:05 Adam I've just watched this amazing film, there's a bloke in it and he was and it was like fucking miserable.

42:08 Adam And it's.

42:08 Adam Yeah, that's right.

42:10 Adam That's what life is like, it's fucking shit, didn't Morgan, and then Bowie kicked him with fucking up, the lesson.

42:15 Adam Oh.

42:15 Adam Oh my God.

42:16 Adam This is the greatest cinematic experience of all time.

42:17 Lee Oh.

42:18 Adam But.

42:19 Adam But the weird thing is is it was that comes from Bowie's Outside album, and the concept of Outside is an art murderer.

42:29 Adam It's a guy who makes works of art by.

42:31 Adam mutilating and murdering people and displaying the a bit like Hannibal, like the TV series of Hannibal where it gets into all those sort of designs and stuff like that.

42:37 Adam So even that's on point with the you know, thematically.

42:40 Adam Definitely.

42:41 Adam And but yeah, there was so.

42:43 Adam Yeah, they mentioned Divine Comedy, History of Catholicism, and murderers and murderers and madmen.

42:50 Adam I couldn't find either of those as like a specific book, frankly.

42:52 Adam like I said, modern homicide investigation, which is a subtitle of practical information for coroners, police officers and other investigators, cult in cold blood, the Truman Capote book, which is Marcus Park's favorite true crime book, I believe.

42:56 Adam Noth for us.

42:57 Adam Yeah, of human bondage, Marquis de Sade.

42:58 Adam And let's face it, everyone's favorite perv, the mark there he is.

43:02 Adam Dirty bastard.

43:04 Adam Oh, I'm assuming that that was going to be 120 Days of Sodom.

43:08 Adam AKA 101 recipes for the unwilling coprophage.

43:14 Adam

43:14 Adam Cuz yeah, that that is that that definitely would be appeal to John Doe.

43:18 Adam It's like.

43:19 Adam So it's like.

43:19 Adam Here's this book about people, you know, doing the most horrendous fucking things to prove how shit society is.

43:24 Adam And yeah.

43:25 Adam But one I found really interesting though is because they mentioned Saint Thomas Aquinas.

43:29 Adam And I was like, right.

43:31 Adam I've got to look this up, and he was a he was a monk, he was a 13th century philosopher, and he's actually the patron saint of teachers.

43:42 Adam And basically eventually his his philosophy was adopted as the philosophy of the Roman Catholic Church. Now bearing in mind this was he was around around in the 1200s, they adopted it in 1917.

43:56 Adam So that's how forward moving, you know, these these things are.

44:04 Adam but basically he he was the first person who tried to reconcile science with religion and like reason with faith.

44:18 Adam And he made the argument that reason, as given to humanity by God, was universal, and so intelligence isn't just for those who are of the Christian faith.

44:33 Adam God will bestow this upon all of humanity, and so you can still learn and you can still take concepts and ideas from other cultures.

44:43 Adam that aren't necessarily and obviously in those points, we're not just talking Christian, we're just talking about nations that are under various religions, that's really the ruling sort of system.

44:56 Adam And so for his example was because do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

45:07 Adam Which obviously was one of Christ's teachings.

45:10 Adam You know.

45:11 Adam But as he pointed out, that also is pretty much the foundation of most working civilizations or working relationships or working groups.

45:25 Adam And so he proposed that there were two there were two laws that govern the universe.

45:32 Adam It was natural law, which is basically everything you can understand, everything you can that has an explanation or has a reason behind it.

45:41 Adam So for example, that was natural law.

45:46 Adam So do unto others as you would do as you would have done unto you is natural law because that works.

45:51 Adam And it is a philosophy, it's a science, it's got, you know.

45:57 Adam Whereas eternal law is basically all the weird shit God does, like angels appearing to people and prophecy.

46:09 Adam Because remember, obviously he is.

46:11 Adam He's the 13th century.

46:13 Adam So he split it apart and basically said, well, they both are part of the same thing and it was a real oddly enough, it's it's it was a real leap forward in the idea that oh no, we can go to these people who we don't have the same belief as.

46:24 Adam But that doesn't mean that their belief in how to make glass or how to make Yeah.

46:32 Adam Yeah, is it's not wrong just because they're they're religious in our religion.

46:42 Adam And yeah, so and like I say, I mean, obviously it took a few fucking centuries for them to sort of think that might have been a nice thing to put out there.

46:55 Adam But the thing that struck me is because I was I read all this and I was quite.

47:01 Adam And then John Doe says God moves in mysterious ways, and he is almost saying that he is eternal law.

47:08 Adam So there's so where they're saying what's the reason behind it, why were you doing it, John?

47:16 Adam And he's like, well, you know, God moves in mysterious ways, he believes that because he's on God's mission, he is eternal law.

47:24 Adam And he is not bound by reason, and it's a really fucking fascinating sort of concept.

47:30 Adam And again, it's that whole thing of.

47:32 Adam Go and do the reading, because you get a real richness out of the film.

47:38 Adam But also not one that you need to fucking do.

47:42 Lee No.

47:43 Lee Yeah, exactly.

47:44 Adam This is when it's done well, yeah.

47:47 Lee Yeah, exactly, this is one of those films where the deeper you delve into it, the better it becomes almost.

47:53 Lee Because there's so much that are almost throw away lines that you would just accept.

47:59 Lee But when you actually, you know, as you say, do the research and look into it, or just take the time to think about it.

48:04 Lee You know, like you were saying, you know, a lot of what John Doe is saying to some degree, although you obviously don't agree with the way he's going about it.

48:14 Lee A lot of the things he's saying, you're like, well, I can kind of see why someone who is unhinged would would latch onto these things and see it that way.

48:20 Lee And it's so well.

48:21 Lee It's so well thought out, it's such a fantastic script.

48:24 Adam It's it's a presentation of how ideas are dangerous.

48:26 Adam Yeah, really.

48:27 Adam You know.

48:28 Lee And.

48:29 Lee And I actually I don't think I appreciate it at the time.

48:31 Lee And I'm so glad that you chose it, Adam, because I'd like I, as I say.

48:35 Lee It's been so many years since I've seen it, and yeah, Lady Jennifer and I watched it again in the week.

48:41 Lee And we're just like, holy shit, that's so much darker, so much deeper and so much better than I'd ever remembered it being.

48:48 Lee Even on a ship print, so yeah, good call, and happy birthday.

48:53 Adam Thank you.

48:54 Chris Happy birthday.

48:54 Lee Thank you.

48:55 Lee An amazing choice.

48:56 Lee Yeah, I'm absolutely blown away with that.

48:58 Lee yeah, and I was just absolutely blown away by it, and it's gonna be a regular rewatch for me.

49:03 Lee I think I'm definitely gonna become a film I watch far more regularly because it's just got so much to it.

49:08 Lee And it's just such a beautiful film to look at.

49:11 Lee

49:12 Adam Oh, that's fucking.

49:13 Adam Yeah, brilliant, man.

49:14 Adam I was like.

49:14 Chris I think also we should all read the books.

49:16 Chris Eventually.

49:17 Adam Well, I've I've read Paradise Lost, but I admit I was on speed.

49:22 Lee Oh.

49:24 Adam So I I I sort of knew I sort of knew what I mean.

49:28 Adam I've I've Well, I was gonna say I've read The Divine Comedy, no, I haven't.

49:32 Adam I've listened to the radio adaptation with John.

49:35 Adam So that counts.

49:37 Lee Oh.

49:37 Lee Okay.

49:38 Lee so for our next episode, are we gonna be doing what we've been watching?

49:40 Lee do we wanna give people a chance, because our next episode after that is a Blu-ray which is coming out on pre-release.

49:50 Lee It well, it's it's on pre-release now.

49:51 Lee But it's not coming out.

49:52 Lee So do we wanna give people the heads up so they get the opportunity to go and pre-order it if they like to follow us?

49:58 Adam Yeah.

49:58 Adam Yeah.

49:59 Lee Yeah.

50:00 Lee Excellent.

50:01 Lee Right.

50:02 Lee So, following our trip to Horror on Sea and seeing eating Miss Campbell, which very much enjoyed.

50:13 Lee we are going to be covering after what we've been watching.

50:17 Lee So in one month's time, we are going to be covering my Bloody Banjo.

50:21 Adam Yes.

50:22 Lee Yeah, which we said was the prequel to Eating Miss Campbell.

50:26 Lee yeah, and it's it's out on pre-release on Blu-ray.

50:30 Lee So go and get it and yeah.

50:34 Lee It it's it's the next film we're gonna cover, and I'm guessing a bit like eating Miss Campbell.

50:39 Lee It's gonna be really fun and really exciting and really gory and fucking ludicrous.

50:42 Adam Yes.

50:44 Lee So go and get it because I think it's gonna be one of those films that you you're gonna want to have seen it before we discuss it.

50:50 Adam Yeah, you could be.

50:51 Adam Right.

50:51 Adam Yeah.

50:52 Lee Yeah.

50:52 Lee So we'll do it that.

50:53 Lee So we'll do Class of Nuke 'Em High, then we'll do my Bloody Banjo, just so that you've got time to pre-order, get your Blu-ray and watch it before we cover it.

50:59 Lee So get out there and get that.

51:02 Lee get Class of Nuke 'Em High because That's I believe streaming on Shutter.

51:09 Adam Oh, is it really?

51:11 Adam At the moment, yes.

51:12 Lee Oh, excellent.

51:13 Lee Right, then I won't have to watch my again my terrible DVD version, which I bought for three quid about 20 years ago.

51:18 Adam That is probably worth about like 100 quid now.

51:21 Lee Oh, really?

51:22 Adam Yeah, to get.

51:23 Adam A lot of the stuff is now.

51:25 Lee Oh, I've got I I say I've got.

51:26 Lee It doesn't belong to me, but in the I have got Toxic Avenger 2 on VHS that belongs to Dr. Dean, my brother.

51:34 Adam He's not a real doctor.

51:35 Lee He's.

51:36 Lee Yeah, so.

51:37 Lee He's.

51:38 Lee Don't ask him for advice.

51:39 Adam He's unsolicited, but he will give it.

51:42 Lee But don't.

51:42 Lee Don't fucking listen.

51:44 Lee Anyway, thanks ever so much for listening, happy birthday to Adam.

51:50 Lee Cheers.

51:50 Adam Cheers.

51:50 Lee An amazing choice.

51:52 Lee Yeah, absolutely blown away with that.

51:54 Lee yeah, and we will see you all.

51:56 Lee In a fortnight's time to let you know what we've been watching.

51:58 Lee Thanks very much.

51:59 Lee Good night.

52:00 Adam Good night.